Iluvatar made Melkor evil?

[Rían]

Oh, I really want to answer MM's question, because (1) it's easy to answer! and (2) it's an important misunderstanding to correct, but what do you say, SGH? Should I answer here, but keep it shorter, or answer in a PM, or answer in another thread, or what? Awaiting your queenly decision ...

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Well Artanis, I'm afraid I have to agree with RÃ*an, and I'm sorry that you have trouble with our bringing God into the debate.

What I tried to say is that the Christian aspect for me has little or no relevance to the discussion, since I'm not religious, and my knowledge of Christianity is quite limited. I prefer a more general philosophical view. But I understand that most of you have a different view on this, and if bringing Christianity into the discussion is what works best for you, then it's fine with me, but it's not what I would prefer.

[Sween]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lief Erikson
[B]
Are you a parent? Well, if you are, look at it this way. You have children, and what if they refuse to acknowledge your authority? They are yours, so even if they refuse to acknowledge your authority, you still punish them for their disobedience and wrongdoing. God created all of us, just as you created your children, so we can't simply refuse to accept his judgement.

Well, your views are very understandable to me, and not at all offensive. You are welcome to keep them as well, but I hope you don't mind my answering to the best of my ability any questions that you have. It makes me very sad that Christians' being a bad witness, in history and in the present(It also very much bugs me), has deterred you from coming to know Christ.

Oh, one thing I did want to mention is that I agree with all of the opinions you've stated about the reasons for Melkor's being evil. I also agree with you that the Valar aren't equal. It's just like humanity in that way, I suppose. Some humans are greater than others in power. Some humans are more beautiful than others, but those others might be more skillful at dancing or something than the other. Some people are less talented and some are more talented, some are more bright and some less bright. I guess it's the same with the Valar, and there are actually quite a lot of evidences to point to the truth of this perspective. If anyone disagrees with this point of view, I'd be happy to start bringing up these examples .

i am indeed soon to become a perant and i hope my child will respond to my guidence (as a perent it my responability to make them understand im against this whole idea of im your father you should automatically listen to me they should be free to question). But my point is that i know where i came from (my perents) and i know where they came from we evolved through time from other animals there was no god involved its all in science so no i dont reconise god as i firmly believe that he does not exist.

Now for tolkiens world god does exist its pretty well documented. Now another thing i believe is there there cannot be good without evil in the same way there cannot be beauty without uglyness.

the real question of melkor is why did he go down the road to evil so early one? He allways seemed from the start to go off opn his own. i would personally call him a loner or maybe he other valar just didnt like him you you leave him out and not invite him to there birthday parties etc. Its clear that his will was much much different from the other valar even early on.

so did eru make melkor evil? the answer is probably. Been a god he proibably has a good idea what will happen and he made something about melkor that would lead him down the path to evil. But why? my personal theory is that the world would not of progressed and people would not of achved what they could of without evil. War when ever it happens does cause even in our own world a lot of progression which is a good thing. Also evil in many a way make people better. if there was no evil would anyone really be good? no we would just be allright i would think never know what true happiness is.

[Andúril]

*Anduril becomes restless, but subsequently falls back into his deep atheological sleep*

[Cirdan]

Tolkien created Melkor evil.

[Andúril]

*Anduril awakens*

Umm....I haven't read this entire thread, but I was just wondering if a definition of "evil" has been agreed upon. If so, what is it?

*Anduril is too lazy to read previous seven pages*

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Sween
But my point is that i know where i came from (my perents) and i know where they came from we evolved through time from other animals there was no god involved its all in science so no i dont reconise god as i firmly believe that he does not exist.

You are created by God, whether you acknowledge it or not, and whether you believe it or not. If your children refuse to acknowledge that you exist, then you must give them a way to know that you exist. God gives this opportunity. It isn't all "surface worship," although it is for some "Christians." Pray that God will reveal himself, and pray it sincerely, and you will come to know him. He will reveal himself to you without your having to take any effort, except that taken by praying (And praying isn't hard).

If you refuse to look into this evidence that God exists, then it is your fault, not God's, that you don't know him. And he still has the right to punish you, forgive you or do anything that a normal parent might do to his child.

As for your statements about evolution . . . I have some very good answers to your statements on that score, but I don't think that I should get into that in depth here, because Sister Golden Hair objects.

the real question of melkor is why did he go down the road to evil so early one? He allways seemed from the start to go off opn his own. i would personally call him a loner or maybe he other valar just didnt like him you you leave him out and not invite him to there birthday parties etc. Its clear that his will was much much different from the other valar even early on.

Melkor actually wasn't any different from the others earlier on, except that he was more powerful. It says that he fell from splendor through arrogance into evil. This implies that he wasn't evil in the beginning. But Ilúvatar made in his creations an ability to choose between good and evil. Arrogance seems to me to be a very logical first error, and it can easily be a step to greater evils. Melkor, because of his power and gifts, had greater temptations than the others, and that explains why he chose the path of evil. But evil wasn't inherent in him; that much is obvious if you consider the way he fell, and that it says he fell from splendor to evil.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
You are created by God, whether you acknowledge it or not, and whether you believe it or not. If your children refuse to acknowledge that you exist, then you must give them a way to know that you exist. God gives this opportunity. It isn't all "surface worship," although it is for some "Christians." Pray that God will reveal himself, and pray it sincerely, and you will come to know him. He will reveal himself to you without your having to take any effort, except that taken by praying (And praying isn't hard).

If you refuse to look into this evidence that God exists, then it is your fault, not God's, that you don't know him. And he still has the right to punish you, forgive you or do anything that a normal parent might do to his child.

As for your statements about evolution . . . I have some very good answers to your statements on that score, but I don't think that I should get into that in depth here, because Sister Golden Hair objects.



Melkor actually wasn't any different from the others earlier on, except that he was more powerful. It says that he fell from splendor through arrogance into evil. This implies that he wasn't evil in the beginning. But Ilúvatar made in his creations an ability to choose between good and evil. Arrogance seems to me to be a very logical first error, and it can easily be a step to greater evils. Melkor, because of his power and gifts, had greater temptations than the others, and that explains why he chose the path of evil. But evil wasn't inherent in him; that much is obvious if you consider the way he fell, and that it says he fell from splendor to evil.

god does not exist and if he does i reject him because hes the root of all evil and a little peice of **** that i would'nt even wipe.......hmmm better stop b4 get in trouble with mods.

Now as for melkor been better at something doesnt automatically make you evil. And is he much stronger than the other valar? Tulkas seemed to have little trouble kicking his ass every once and a while.

I think its more to do with him been a loner.

[Cirdan]

This is heading to the death spiral unless the god talk stops..

Just because Melkor starts from a pointt of grace does not preclude a fall of destiny. There is still no answer as to what was different between Melkor and the rest. All of the Ainur show some degree of weakness at various times. Arrogance was the symptom, but where was the disease?

Evolution? Do you really want to go there?

[MasterMothra]

"You are created by God, whether you acknowledge it or not, and whether you believe it or not."

no, im not, and you werent either. god is a idea made up to control peoples thought. its that simple.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Cirdan
This is heading to the death spiral unless the god talk stops..

Very true

[MasterMothra]

"Tolkien created Melkor evil"

thats about as true as it gets!

[Sister Golden Hair]

You know, I think all has been said that can be said. Tolkien made Melkor evil says it all. Closing.