Iluvatar made Melkor evil?

[Artanis]

There is one thing in Ainulindale that troubles me: Before the beginning of the World, Iluvatar created the Ainur, offspring of his thought. Melkor was one of them. Does not this imply that evil was present within the spirit, or thoughts of Iluvatar also?

[webwizard333]

He merely gave Melkor free will. Illuvator did not make him to be evil, rather he became proud and decided that he knew best. Melkor chose "evil", not nessecarily because of the Illuvator.

[Sister Golden Hair]

The Silmarillin says of Melkor:

Great might was given to him by Iluvatar, and he was coeval with Manwe. In the power and knowledge of all the other Valar he had part, but he turned them to evil purposes and squandered his strength in violence and tyranny. For he coveted Arda and all that was in it, desiring the kingship of Manwe and dominion over the realm of his peers.

From splendor he fell through arrogance to comtempt for all things save himself, a spirit wasteful and pitiless. Understanding he turned to subtlety in perverting to his own will all that he would use, until he became a liar without shame. He began with the desire of light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into a great burning down into Darkness. And darkness he used most in his evil works upon Arda, and filled it with fear for all living things.

[Ñólendil]

Tolkien once said that in Ilúvatar's original design Melkor was to begin and establish while Manwe was to improve and develop. Those aren't the exact words, it's in Morgoth's Ring, I'm too lazy to look it up. Melkor developed his evil thoughts in his time away from the One, when he was traversing the pathless Void, seeking the Imperishable Flame.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Right. And the Imperishable Flame is only with Iluvatar.

[Archbob the Elder]

In many stories, the greatest among the mighty, often fall into darkness. As it is stated in the begginning, Melkor at that time was the greatest of the Valar.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by webwizard333
He merely gave Melkor free will. Illuvator did not make him to be evil, rather he became proud and decided that he knew best. Melkor chose "evil", not nessecarily because of the Illuvator.

Thank you, yes, that makes sense. I remember now reading somewhere that the ability of any living, conscious creature to exercise its free will is essential in Tolkien's books. Even if it means choosing 'bad' or 'evil'. I like that.

[Ancalagon]

I posted this reply in another thread of the same subject, so it is fitting to repeat it here;

I fully understand the 'giving of free will' as a gift from Eru to the Ainur. Certainly the comparison is inevitable between the Authors own beliefs and comprehension of 'free will' as a gift from our (his) creator, however, if we (or the Ainur) have no benchmark for knowing wrong or commiting acts of evil, where then does that dissent originally stem from. Is it from the creator?

Surely Melkor, as with any who knows his creator, would only wish to please and seek favour. It must be remembered that;



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In the beginning Eru, the One, who....., made the Ainur of his thought.
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Sil.

So we know that they (The Ainur) were from his mind, of his creation, in his likeness!

Yet, we know that even before the music of the Ainur, Melkor was already spoiled or corrupt;


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Out of the deeps of Ea she (Varda) came to the aid of Manwe; for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected him, and he hated her.
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Sil.

Yet, how does one truly explain the path Melkor walked? Well, this quote from the Ainulindale sums up my arguement, though it is up to each individual to decide for themselves;


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for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came, and in understanding of their brethern they grew but slowly
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Sil.

So Melkor, derived from the thought of Iluvatar, was given the greatest powers, but immediately began to sow discord within the Music from his own imaginings. This is the crux of my thinking on this matter, that these changes were, by design, within Iluvatar himself and maifested by Melkor. He was chosen to cause discord, for this was as Iluvatar meant it to be.


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Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall fully understand HIS INTENT IN THEIR PART, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Iluvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased
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Melkor might be considered by some, a 'Patsy'. He played out Iluvatars part for him to the letter. His (Melkor) was the fate of creating discord because he was the incarnation of one aspect of Iluvatars persona.

[Artanis]

Melkor was meant to cause discord? Interesting thought. But if that was his fate, then it's hard to see how that goes with the idea of free will.

[Ancalagon]

Do you really think the Children of Eru had 'free will?' If one considers the dooms, fates, premonitions, destiny et al, one would think everyone had a life mapped out and woven within the music long before they ventured out beneath the stars and the Sun!

[Ñólendil]

It is said in the Valaquenta, -- or maybe it was the Ainulindale -- that one of the gifts the One gave to Men was a greater power of free will (greater than that of the Elves, the Ainur or anything or anyone else).

[tharkun27]

I always thought a major theme was- whatever the dietys did would always somehow add to the glory of the one. No matter how unharmonious Melkor's part in the great music, it was always subtley incorparted by Illuvitar. It always ended up adding to the greater good- somehow fufilling Illuvitar's master plan. Without Melkor, Ulmo would have never conceived of rain, snow, frost, and the clouds. The "one" works in mysterious ways.

[MasterMothra]

it would seem that an omnipotent "god" would know the outcome of all events before they transpired. if this were applied to the morgoth/eru debate then eru would have known all that morgoth would do before it happened, good and evil. eru is ultimately responsible for what his thought created, but it all makes for a good story in the end. good post!

[Artanis]

I think free will is essential. The real 'evil' of Melkor was his desire to "be a master over other wills" (Ainulindale).

Originally posted by MasterMothra
it would seem that an omnipotent "god" would know the outcome of all events before they transpired. if this were applied to the morgoth/eru debate then eru would have known all that morgoth would do before it happened, good and evil.

Rather than knowing all events before they happen, I think Eru knew all the possibilities and their outcome. Then it's up to every single conscious creature continuously to choose between the possibilities given, good or bad. That is, excercising their free will. Some of the possibilities have consequenses that cause sorrow and grief and suffering in various degrees, and thus would be 'evil', but by Eru's glorious design all possible choices would in the end be of the good, even if it would seem otherwise when the choice was made.

Originally posted by Ñólendil
It is said in the Valaquenta, -- or maybe it was the Ainulindale -- that one of the gifts the One gave to Men was a greater power of free will (greater than that of the Elves, the Ainur or anything or anyone else).

This is said in the end of chapter 1 in Quenta Silmarillion.

[Tar-Palantir]

Melkor is simply a vessel unto wrath. In other words, Melkor was created by Eru with full knowledge of who he would be and what he would do. But Eru purposed to allow Melkor to lay down his plans and wreak his havoc on the world - which Melkor did freely, without any coercion - and Eru did this for his own good purposes.

This in no way impugns the righteous character of Eru.

Why must the idea of a universe of free intelligent creatures making all their own decisions, and the concept of an all-knowing Eru sovereignly working his purpose in and through them all be seen as incompatible?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
Why must the idea of a universe of free intelligent creatures making all their own decisions, and the concept of an all-knowing Eru sovereignly working his purpose in and through them all be seen as incompatible?

Because, if the creator knows all decisions beforehand, it implies that the creator has created all intelligent creatures (too many creat-ings here, not very intelligent of me ), so that they would take exactly those decisions. In that case free will is only an illusion.

[webwizard333]

Because, if the creator knows all decisions beforehand, it implies that the creator has created all intelligent creatures (too many creat-ings here, not very intelligent of me ), so that they would take exactly those decisions. In that case free will is only an illusion.

I'd disagree with that. Simply knowing the outcome doesn not nescitate having made it to be so. Just because there is knowledge of what the choice shall be, does not mean that it still lacks the vestige of free will, which I think the Anuir did have, though to a lesser degree than man having basically sung out their lives in the Great Music.

[Tar-Palantir]

someone wrote, [In that case free will is only an illusion.]

I apologize for being vague with credit for the quote, I'm still getting used to the way this board works.

First, I hope to keep the discussion on the theology of Arda from Tolkien's viewpoint rather than on my ordinary, everyday, personal theology. (grin) But our own views of theology do affect our interpretations of Tolkien's, do they not?

Take Feanor. Feanor acted uncoerced in his making of the Silmarils, and in his leaving them with his father for a short time. Melkor acted in an uncoerced way in his robbery of the Silmarils and murder of Feanor's father. (Finwe? I don't have the book at hand.) Feanor again acts in an uncoerced way in taking the awful oath to gain back the silmarils at whatever cost. Thus, you have the Quenta Silmarillion.

But was not all this played out ahead of time in the music of the Ainur? And does not Iluvatar himself state that even the rebellion of Melkor in the muisic was allowed for his own purpose and in the end they will see the beauty it brought without which Arda would have been incomplete? I wish I had the book in front of me to give the quote, but I distinctly remember it because, as a student of theology, I was very interested in the theology of Middle-earth as I read the Silmarillion. I may be wrong. Quote pending. (grin)

My point is, no outside force compelled Feanor or Melkor for that matter to make any decision against their will. And yet, all was destined, if you will, in the music of the Ainur before the world began.

The two concepts are not incompatible. If they were, neither Melkor nor Feanor could be held responsible for his actions, as they so clearly are.

Does that make sense?

[Sister Golden Hair]

What part does fate, or predestination play outside of free will especially in the case of Feanor I wonder? Tolkien speaks a great deal about fate and doom. If any of it was fate then does that not mean it was meant to happen and no actions on anyone's part could have changed it? Or, does it mean that (this is your fate, your actions will dictate its outcome)? If the later is the case, then would that be free will?

[Lief Erikson]

You know, this debate is very similar to the one of whether God created evil when he created Satan. In fact, many of the overall themes that are in the Silmarillion are to be found in the Bible. The Noldor going their own way, departing from Valinor could be corrolated with Israel turning away from God, and then in both instances, they are punished for this. God repeatedly punishes this action of the Israelites, through the Assyrians and many others. In the Silmarillion they are punished by Melkor until Earendil's voyage, when he turns back to Valinor/God. Then they are saved, as in the War of Wrath.

I realize that that is off topic, but I only just realized that as I was reading this thread, and it struck me as interesting.

Melkor was given great power and splendor, it said in the Silmarillion, but he became arrogant and that was what caused him to go wrong. His first sins were pride and envy, after that came that hatred and anger and all that. Eru permitted Melkor to take these choices because they were his to make.

I think that in Middle Earth, man certainly did have free will, to make their own decisions. And Eru can use the decisions of men to his own purposes.

It's like if you have a choice whether to go into a house or not. You could choose to go in, and if you choose that, then Eru knew in advance what you were going to do. But you could choose to remain outside of the house, and if you choose that, then Eru knew in advance what you were going to do. He knows, but that doesn't stop you from having a choice. You can make up your own mind, and you can't blame your actions on predestination, for you had the ability to do something different. You simply chose not to. Eru wants the people of Middle Earth to do what is right, and it's their own choice whether they do or not. But whether they do right or evil, he knows. Simply because someone knows in advance what you are going to do does not mean it isn't your choice and your decision.