Are there any homosexual characters in The Silmarillion?

Peter_20 · 03-16-2007, 10:09 AM

Really, I've always thought at least ONE character in this huge tale should've been homosexual, seeing as there are hundreds of characters in the book.
I always liked to think Fingon and Maedhros were a couple, but since they're cousins I find it hard to believe.

It's interesting how some Elves never wedded and had children, but still lived thousands of years (sexual desire

), so characters like Aegnor and Celebrimbor could most likely have been homosexual, or possibly asexual.

carlrodd · 03-16-2007, 10:37 AM

i'm pretty sure tolkien made no consideration of homosexuality while crafting his work. i would assume, given their passionate nature, that elves who remained unhitched for so long were completely immersed in other things.....war, creating beautiful and terrible things, building great cities etc.

brownjenkins · 03-16-2007, 12:39 PM

Tolkien actually seems to avoid sexuality, of either kind, almost completely in his stories, other than when it is necessary. But, given his christian background and the time he grew up in, I'd have to think he would never have included any kind of homosexuality.

Peter_20 · 03-16-2007, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Tolkien actually seems to avoid sexuality, of either kind, almost completely in his stories, other than when it is necessary. But, given his christian background and the time he grew up in, I'd have to think he would never have included any kind of homosexuality.

That's a pity, because if he were to include homosexual details somewhere, this would make me respect him even more.

Oh well, I guess it ain't that bad though.

jammi567 · 03-16-2007, 12:49 PM

Just because Tolkien didn't put it in, and didn't mean to put it in, it doesn't mean that we can't infer.

Butterbeer · 03-16-2007, 02:35 PM

sheesh

I'm much more worried by the glaring ommisions of Alien sex-trippers to both planet earth and Middle earth, in his works frankly!

Belwen_of_nargothrond · 12-15-2007, 12:04 PM

I totally agree with bropous in every way.

Draken · 01-15-2008, 08:09 AM

Just browse through some fangirl fanfiction. Apparently every character is gay, in every story. Ever.

ecthelion · 01-17-2008, 10:56 AM

what is fan girl fanfiction?

Belwen_of_nargothrond · 01-19-2008, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draken

Just browse through some fangirl fanfiction. Apparently every character is gay, in every story. Ever.

I can't stand to read any fanfiction. I prefer the original stories how they were meant to be and not changed or mangled by some crazed fans.

***Valandil*** · 01-19-2008, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belwen_of_nargothrond

I can't stand to read any fanfiction. I prefer the original stories how they were meant to be and not changed or mangled by some crazed fans.

I don't mangle. I fill gaps.

Gordis · 01-20-2008, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belwen_of_nargothrond

I can't stand to read any fanfiction. I prefer the original stories how they were meant to be and not changed or mangled by some crazed fans.

The best fanfics change nothing in the main plot. They only explore Tolkien's world further - filling the gaps and telling new stories with their own original characters set in Tolkien's great universe. Some fics out there are quite good - sometimse they are even better written, as to the depth of character development, than Tolkien's own stories. Some but not most. Unfortunately, about 90 percent of fanfics are awful crap.

inked · 01-21-2008, 12:13 AM

NO! (see page 1 of this thread)

BeardofPants · 01-17-2008, 01:29 PM

Well, it's where the male elf takes his peepee, and the girl human from earth takes off all her clothes and... *insert birds & bees lecture here*.

**Mari** · 01-17-2008, 01:55 PM

Except that it often includes boy-boy relations and often doesn't go much further then a kiss. A few people I know are into this kind of thing and I sometimes check their English before they publish it online. Some stories are really funny! (Allthough they are certainly not intended te be

)

BeardofPants · 01-18-2008, 12:04 AM

Yeah, but those are all prominent people. I wonder if those relationships were part & parcel of being wealthy or upper class, cos that sorta continued past the classical period (behaviours being acceptable in the upper class, but not so much in the lower ones).

BeardofPants · 01-25-2008, 01:10 AM

I was merely wondering aloud. I studied ancient history as well, and didn't really recollect much as it's been a while. I did a quick search in wikipedia (just now) and came up with this:

"Though the love of boys was freely practiced by the aristocracy, it remained a source of mirth for the common people, and a topic lampooned by the comedians. Aristophanes, in Peace, in a parody of Ganymede riding on the back of Zeus in eagle form, has his character ride to Olympus on the back of a dung beetle, a scatological pun on anal sex."

I've not read any sources for quite a while, so I've no real thoughts on this, and there's no much anthropology I can bring in (

). Was really just musing out loud, cos certainly in latter historic periods, pederasty, etc, was openly practiced by aristocrats, and so forth, but not so much by lower ranking peoples (ie commoners).

Gwaimir Windgem · 01-27-2008, 06:28 PM

Speaking of Aristophanes, I remember one character talking about wishing some father in the society would come to him and complain that he (the character) hadn't been pursuing his (the father's) son; as I recall, the character was at least in fairly dire financial straits, which would seem to indicate that he would be in the lower strata of Athenian society.

EDIT: But we're rather off-topic...

Jon S. · 03-03-2008, 01:43 PM

Months later, I think I finally can articulate my answer to the OP's question. Yes, there are homosexual characters in the Simarillion. There has to be because the characters in the book include the full community of Elvish, mannish, and Dwarvish peoples and whether some are able to acknowledge it or not, a certain percentage of every community, always, has been, is, and will be gay.

Whether Tolkien presented any of his characters as overtly or covertly homosexual is a different question. Yes, it happens to be the question most of y'all would argue over but the answer to OP's question remains "yes."

Curufin · 03-26-2008, 03:34 PM

On the topic at hand, I couldn't care less.

It's not a Mills and Boon novel, and it shouldn't be read to discover characters' sexuality.

But, I do suggest that you take Aegnor/Aikanáro off the list of possibles, and read Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth.

He was in love with Andreth, a daughter of Men.

03-16-2007, 10:09 AM	#1
Peter_20 Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 104	Are there any homosexual characters in The Silmarillion? Really, I've always thought at least ONE character in this huge tale should've been homosexual, seeing as there are hundreds of characters in the book. I always liked to think Fingon and Maedhros were a couple, but since they're cousins I find it hard to believe. It's interesting how some Elves never wedded and had children, but still lived thousands of years (sexual desire ), so characters like Aegnor and Celebrimbor could most likely have been homosexual, or possibly asexual. Last edited by Peter_20 : 03-17-2007 at 08:14 AM.

03-16-2007, 12:39 PM	#3
brownjenkins Advocatus Diaboli Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Reality Posts: 3,767	Tolkien actually seems to avoid sexuality, of either kind, almost completely in his stories, other than when it is necessary. But, given his christian background and the time he grew up in, I'd have to think he would never have included any kind of homosexuality. __________________ Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.

03-16-2007, 12:49 PM	#5
jammi567 I'm Eru, and lord of Arda. Join Date: May 2006 Location: southampton, hampshire Posts: 2,609	Just because Tolkien didn't put it in, and didn't mean to put it in, it doesn't mean that we can't infer. __________________ Vote for me, Jammi567, in the 2008 Entmoot elections, and you will get many of the things we need: free, unbiased, newspapers; a strong alliance with many countries, so that war doesn't start over someone breaking their nose on a doorframe; etc, etc This forum is lonely. It's new and confused, and doesn't have many friends yet. Help today by joining for free, posting, and posting this message and link in your sig. So please, join and help make it feel welcomed and loved.

12-15-2007, 12:04 PM	#7
Belwen_of_nargothrond Enting Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Nargothrond Posts: 71	Greetings I totally agree with bropous in every way.

01-15-2008, 08:09 AM	#8
Draken Elf Lord Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Durham, England Posts: 694	Just browse through some fangirl fanfiction. Apparently every character is gay, in every story. Ever. __________________ I'm beset by self-doubt ....or am I?

03-16-2007, 10:37 AM	#2
carlrodd Sapling Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: delaware Posts: 14	i'm pretty sure tolkien made no consideration of homosexuality while crafting his work. i would assume, given their passionate nature, that elves who remained unhitched for so long were completely immersed in other things.....war, creating beautiful and terrible things, building great cities etc.

03-16-2007, 02:35 PM	#6
Butterbeer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: here and there Posts: 3,514	sheesh I'm much more worried by the glaring ommisions of Alien sex-trippers to both planet earth and Middle earth, in his works frankly!

01-17-2008, 10:56 AM	#9
ecthelion Enting Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Gondolin. in travian.it server5 Posts: 91	what is fan girl fanfiction? __________________ The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! What does "LOL" mean?

01-21-2008, 12:13 AM	#13
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	NO! (see page 1 of this thread) __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

01-17-2008, 01:29 PM	#14
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Well, it's where the male elf takes his peepee, and the girl human from earth takes off all her clothes and... insert birds & bees lecture here. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

01-17-2008, 01:55 PM	#15
Mari Elf Lady Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In the lands where mountains are but a fairytale Posts: 8,588	Except that it often includes boy-boy relations and often doesn't go much further then a kiss. A few people I know are into this kind of thing and I sometimes check their English before they publish it online. Some stories are really funny! (Allthough they are certainly not intended te be ) __________________ Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply. ...The Earth laughs in flowers ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Hamatreya"...

01-18-2008, 12:04 AM	#16
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Yeah, but those are all prominent people. I wonder if those relationships were part & parcel of being wealthy or upper class, cos that sorta continued past the classical period (behaviours being acceptable in the upper class, but not so much in the lower ones). __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

01-25-2008, 01:10 AM	#17
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	I was merely wondering aloud. I studied ancient history as well, and didn't really recollect much as it's been a while. I did a quick search in wikipedia (just now) and came up with this: "Though the love of boys was freely practiced by the aristocracy, it remained a source of mirth for the common people, and a topic lampooned by the comedians. Aristophanes, in Peace, in a parody of Ganymede riding on the back of Zeus in eagle form, has his character ride to Olympus on the back of a dung beetle, a scatological pun on anal sex." I've not read any sources for quite a while, so I've no real thoughts on this, and there's no much anthropology I can bring in (). Was really just musing out loud, cos certainly in latter historic periods, pederasty, etc, was openly practiced by aristocrats, and so forth, but not so much by lower ranking peoples (ie commoners). __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

01-27-2008, 06:28 PM	#18
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Speaking of Aristophanes, I remember one character talking about wishing some father in the society would come to him and complain that he (the character) hadn't been pursuing his (the father's) son; as I recall, the character was at least in fairly dire financial straits, which would seem to indicate that he would be in the lower strata of Athenian society. EDIT: But we're rather off-topic... __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-03-2008, 01:43 PM	#19
Jon S. Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 455	Months later, I think I finally can articulate my answer to the OP's question. Yes, there are homosexual characters in the Simarillion. There has to be because the characters in the book include the full community of Elvish, mannish, and Dwarvish peoples and whether some are able to acknowledge it or not, a certain percentage of every community, always, has been, is, and will be gay. Whether Tolkien presented any of his characters as overtly or covertly homosexual is a different question. Yes, it happens to be the question most of y'all would argue over but the answer to OP's question remains "yes."

03-26-2008, 03:34 PM	#20
Curufin The Ñoldóran Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Mishawaka, IN Posts: 2,050	On the topic at hand, I couldn't care less. It's not a Mills and Boon novel, and it shouldn't be read to discover characters' sexuality. But, I do suggest that you take Aegnor/Aikanáro off the list of possibles, and read Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. He was in love with Andreth, a daughter of Men. __________________ Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian

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