Should evolution be taught in schools?

[Ms. Undomial]

Earinel- Now I never said that. well anyway, why do you believe in evolution?? evolution is a religon for the people in the world that think God is a theory and just something for people to think that they are actually going somewhere after death. well I am sorry but is all evolution is in my opinion.

[Starr Polish]

Originally posted by Ms. Undomial
...if you go to public schools, and don't want to study evolution, you have to. there is nothing you can do about it. it should not be taught in schools....what about people who do not have any religion, and do not want to learn about evolution, go to public schools and have to do tests on it? also what about children? they don't know any better, and they go to public schools and some of the teachers say that evolution is true and if you do not belive in it, you are wacko(they would probably use a differnt word that "wacko")?

Your logic seems a bit flawed here. If I don't want to study the comma rules and take tests on the eight parts of speech, should this mean that I get out of it? People that weasel out of schoolwork on the basis of religious belief (one of my friends did this last year, it irritated me to no end) should have to do the same work as everyone else. For my freshmen biology class we were required to write a paper on evolution, and create teh world in a billion years. A friend of mine (in fact, the same one I mentioned earlier), took bio a year after me, and was constantly complaining about how unfair it was that she, a CHRISTIAN, had to do a paper. Ugh...deal with it.

Also, what does evolution have to do with life after death? Absolutely nothing at all! You can easily believe in God and evolution, I am a living example of this (though I don't believe in it exactly the way it is taught). Evolution is not the religion of people who don't believe in God...first off, it's not a religion. And, as has been stated before, evolution in NO WAY attempts to disprove God. Too many Christians take this way out of proportion and give the rest of us a bad name.

[Treebeard's apprentice]

The TOE says things happened thru beneficial mutations over a huge amount of time (very much a simplified statement, I know, but correct in the essentials), and there is no God behind it.

I never said there was no God behind it. As I have said before, even the Pope believes in theistic evolutionism. I'm just saying that the ToE is more believable than an entire universe appearing fully formed and filled with creatures in less than a week.

[Ms. Undomial]

Star Polish- I would love to do a paper in school! I think school is fun!! I just would not want to do it on evolution.

[Starr Polish]

Originally posted by Treebeard's apprentice
I'm just saying that the ToE is more believable than an entire universe appearing fully formed and filled with creatures in less than a week.

::voomp:: Now I'm going to defend the religious side of this debate

I've always wondered about the whole 'making the world in a week' as well. The thing is, God doesn't experience time as we do. I suppose you could say he is "outside" of time as we know it. In an attempt to put it in terms we could understand, the writer of these books (is it beleived to be Moses? Can't remember) used that terminology. Or, perhaps, he used different words that have been lost in the translation. OR, the word 'day' coudl just refer to an amount of time, not necessarily what we call a day today.

Ms. Undomial, my point was the paper was ON evolution.

[Ms. Undomial]

Starr Polish- yes I know. alright, do you beleve in evolution??? you friend could of done a paper against evolution but she would of failed on it(most likely). why didn't she ask the teacher about it? why didn't she write a paper against evolution? all she wanted was to get out of writeing a paper.

[IronParrot]

Ms. Undomial:

"if evolution is true(which it isn't in my opinon), where do we go after death?? do we just dissapear?? do we fall into nothingness??"

Evolution has nothing to do with the concept of a soul. The former is a scientific process regarding the propagation of current species and the creation of new ones. The latter is still a philosophical argument that you can neither prove nor disprove.

"I mean evolution says that we were there was one great big boom, and everything just happend to land like this."

No it doesn't.

RÃ*an:

"First of all can you name any observable beneficial mutations? The only mutations I know of are called "birth defects" - and for a very good reason - they are not beneficial."

Birth defects have nothing to do with evolution, as they are not propagated traits, and are not a result of adaptation. A man born without arms can still have a son with all limbs intact.

Propagated mutations - part of the definition of a species - are observable in many cases all over the world. Certain tropical fish develop bands of colouration for the purpose of camoflauge in a coral reef. Porcupine fish develop venemous spines for self-defense and survival. Some bees have stings, and others don't - depending on whether or not it is a demand of their environment. Polar bears have fluffy coats because they live in cold weather. Darwin's own pet example was, of course, the tortoise population in the Galapagos...

Ms. Undomial again:

"Hasty Ent- How is evolution a "necessary foundation as learning basic math and grammar."?? Quite right, it is not a religon. but if you go to public schools, and don't want to study evolution, you have to. there is nothing you can do about it. it should not be taught in schools."

First of all, I agree that evolution isn't quite that fundamental... in fact, it's complex enough that it should really wait until high school level biology (which, in most schools, you have the option of not taking). Speaking of basic math and grammar... well, what if you don't want to study math and grammar? Maybe they shouldn't be taught in schools either, eh? Apparently most students don't really ever pick them up anyway...

Evolution has no church. Teaching evolution in public schools does not violate a separation of church and state.

Let me put it this way again: science is not a religion. The difference between scientific theories and religious theories is that the formulation of scientific theories follows Galilean method - "accepted until disproven." Religious theories do not follow Galilean method, but the doctrine that "if the evidence contradicts the gospel, the evidence must be discarded."

RÃ*an again:

"OK, I'll leave that one too, only noting that open systems can have an even greater increase in entropy."

Don't know why you're bringing open systems into this at all, as the laws of thermodynamics don't apply without conservation of mass-energy...

"what I see when I look around is an amazingly organized creation. Don't you?"

Nope, afraid I don't.

Random kinetic motion in gas particles - or, at the subatomic level, the probabilistic movement of electrons - or, say, the ion flow of the earth's core - all of these are examples of extreme disorder. The very air you breathe is a case of highly random motion - and just wait until you pump up the temperature... then you're talking.

You can't even describe the petals on a rose without complex multidimensional fractal algorithms - and the adage that no two are alike is just one example of the impressive degree of randomness exhibited here.

That's hardly organized. If you're bringing thermodynamics into this, true organization would be where most everything is a perfect immobile crystal exhibiting no motion at a temperature of zero Kelvin. (See the Third Law of Thermodynamics, which defines the reference point for standard entropy.)

"I agree that the 2nd law doesn't prove anything about intelligent design or creation (although it meshes incredibly well with it). What I am saying is that it is an incredibly strong proof against the th. of evolution."

Don't see how.

The theory of evolution deals with speciation - the propagation of current species resulting in the creation of new ones. As evidenced by the thousands of species of birds in the Amazon rainforest, this leads to extreme diversity - and very little uniformity. Evolution may deal with organized complex biological systems, but that is outweighed by the sheer diversity of the systems that exist.

I'd hardly say the world around us is organized when everything is so diverse that we are unable to visualize a pure, perfect Platonic idea for anything.

[IronParrot]

Cirdan:

"Didn't we cover every last inch of this topic in the Theist and the Anti-Theist threads. If anyone who didn't has enough free time to read the thousand plus entries and still has anything to contribute should lecture on the subject."

Nah, this is a specific issue... it just has a lot of crossover tangents.

RÃ*an:

"The difference is that creationists base their understanding of creation upon a book which claims to be the word of the One who was there, who knows everything there is to know about everything, and who tells us what happened."

And who made that claim?

The Hebrews who wrote it.

BeardofPants:

"Evolution is all about selective fitness. The best possible fit."

Well, humans are actually a bit of an aberration in terms of pure physical fitness, as the development of tools gave them an advantage of survival... if humans were released into the wild with nothing, and no knowledge of tools, they wouldn't survive.

Finally, I came up with another insight I should add here:

Nobody told you that you have to believe everything you're taught in schools. A lot of people still don't believe in quantum physics and Schrodinger's Cat and all that jazz. And a lot of people (correctly) know that the War of 1812 was a draw, despite what some American textbooks may claim about it being a victory.

As such, evolution should be taught at the appropriate level of understanding.

[emplynx]

Originally posted by Lizra
I don't understand your point Emplynx. Banana is a living thing, so are we....That is why we share DNA with it. Banana (millions of years) monkey (millions of years) man, Makes perfect sense to me!!

I believe you should research the "system of interchangeable parts" it was a brilliant idea. I'm sure God thought it handy too.

Originally posted by Ms. Undomial
How do you know that the earth is hundreds of millions of years old??? you don't! I mean look at the moon, it has no atmosphere so there for it must have been huge because of all the meateors hitting it, it decreases in size. and what about moon dust? if it was million of years old then there would be much more dust on it.

Ms. Undomial

I hate to argue with you, but that argument was thrown out 30 years ago.

Originally posted by Starr Polish
Also, what does evolution have to do with life after death? Absolutely nothing at all! You can easily believe in God and evolution, I am a living example of this (though I don't believe in it exactly the way it is taught). Evolution is not the religion of people who don't believe in God...first off, it's not a religion. And, as has been stated before, evolution in NO WAY attempts to disprove God. Too many Christians take this way out of proportion and give the rest of us a bad name.

I don't know about you, but my bible gives a clear account of creation of the universe, and it has nothing to do with god creating a one celled organism that evovled into other things.

[Lief Erikson]

It doesn't say anything against it either, does it, emplynx? It never says how God made anything, simply that he made it by speaking.

Ironparrot, just because things are at random doesn't mean they weren't created. The petals of a rose may be incredibly complex and each one different, but what does that show? God can use apparently random circumstances to bring about a purpose; look at the end result of the rose. Organization isn't necessary to design when the design is made by God.

And it isn't just the Hebrews who wrote the Bible that claim it is God's inspired word. Millions of Christians claim that and have always claimed it, and that is based on experience, not upon what the Hebrews said.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Ms. Undomial
Earinel- Now I never said that. well anyway, why do you believe in evolution?? evolution is a religon for the people in the world that think God is a theory and just something for people to think that they are actually going somewhere after death. well I am sorry but is all evolution is in my opinion.

You never said what? That about the moon or the third eye? Further I don't see evolution as a religion. A religion is (in my view) something wherein you accept certains things without scientific proof. I also hate it when people say you either believe in evolution or that a god created the world. Nothing is just black or white. The two can coexist or even be entwined in my view. Neither sides have enough evidence to rule out the other. You can't prove that God does or doesn't exsists or whether he did or did not meddle with the world.

Why I believe in evolution? Because it makes a lot more sense to me than creationism. Evolution as well as creationism have been part of my life for a long time. I went to a very strict catholic school. But I watched documentaries about dinosaurs ever since I was 5 or so. Creationism just didn't make sense. It was too rigid, it seemed to me it could not accept that it was wrong on some parts. It took centuries and plenty of bloodshed before the Pope accepted that the world wasn't the center of the universe. Evolution gave me facts, tangeable things where as creationism gave me nothing of that kind. Evolution gave me dinosaurs and fossils. Creationism didn't even have room for them. So to me science proved more reliable. It can change, admit it was wrong when the opposite is proven. Also I found evolution to be more flexible. When something doesn't fit the evolutionary model it is not immediatly discarded as incorrect, something I found creationism does. Evolution constantly questions itself, it doesn't assume it has all the answers, which is I believe a healthy attitude.

Our knowlegde of evolution to this day isn't perfect, new facts are discovered every day and scientific theories have to be adjusted to that. But at least they do so. Carbondating and other methods may not be as mathematically exact as we would like but that doesn't mean they're entirely wrong.

Also I find it insufficient to turn to a religious explanation when something doesn't fit in the evolutionary model. Just because the afterlife doesn't get discussed in the evolutionary model doesn't mean that creationism is right.

[emplynx]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
It doesn't say anything against it either, does it, emplynx? It never says how God made anything, simply that he made it by speaking.

I'm pretty sure that evolution can't happen in 6 days. That's how long it took for God to create the worldl.

[IronParrot]

"Ironparrot, just because things are at random doesn't mean they weren't created. The petals of a rose may be incredibly complex and each one different, but what does that show? God can use apparently random circumstances to bring about a purpose; look at the end result of the rose. Organization isn't necessary to design when the design is made by God."

I was using that example in reference to the whole debate about entropy earlier... I didn't say organization was necessary to design. And I didn't say that it disproved the existence of God, either. I believe that the existence of God can neither be proved nor disproved.

"And it isn't just the Hebrews who wrote the Bible that claim it is God's inspired word. Millions of Christians claim that and have always claimed it, and that is based on experience, not upon what the Hebrews said."

But the Bible - the Old Testament anyway - is what the Hebrews said! So if you'd like to provide me with evidence of such experience to which you refer, please do... because right now, it looks pretty tautological to me.

"I'm pretty sure that evolution can't happen in 6 days. That's how long it took for God to create the worldl."

Only by the literal interpretation of the Bible, the same literal interpretation that implies the world is 6000 years old and pi is equal to 3.

Most people, yes, most Christians today subscribe to the fact that the Bible is written in a subjective literary prose where ambiguities, approximations and metaphors - such as the use of the word "day" here - are present to some degree.

I think "day" was a flawed translation of some arbitrary Hebrew term for a given period of time, too, but I'm not certain about that one.

[Starr Polish]

IronParrot:

(which, in most schools, you have the option of not taking).

Not so in mine, it's a requirement, unless you have a severe learning disability. It is also required to enter most colleges.

Ms. Undomial:

Starr Polish- yes I know. alright, do you beleve in evolution??? you friend could of done a paper against evolution but she would of failed on it(most likely). why didn't she ask the teacher about it? why didn't she write a paper against evolution? all she wanted was to get out of writeing a paper.

You obviously did not understand what I posted. Perhaps you should slow down while reading the posts and actually find out what the poster means. My friend did the paper, it's was an assignment that she couldn't get out of. What got irritating was the fact that she constantly complained about why she had to do the paper, when all of her other Christian friends had done it without so much as a word. You couldn't write a paper 'against' evolution. We had to invent new species, change biomes and create symbiotic relationships between the new species (one of the new species being a sentient being).

I have already stated that I believe in evolution, to a point. I guess it would be more correct for me to say that I believe wholly in natural selection, survival of the fittest (though with technological advances humans have nearly completely omitted 'natural selection', making it now artificial).

Emplynx:

I don't know about you, but my bible gives a clear account of creation of the universe, and it has nothing to do with god creating a one celled organism that evovled into other things.

A clear account of creation? A clear account would tell us exactly how He did it, and why. Though the Bible was divinely inspired, it WAS written by men, and we can never claim to have a full understanding of God, meaning we will not have a full understanding of how life came to be, until we meet Him.

No, the bible never sepciically says that life began from a single celled organism, but Jesus also never directly refers to Himself as the Son of God, but I believe it to be true.

I'm pretty sure that evolution can't happen in 6 days. That's how long it took for God to create the worldl.

If you think that six days to God is the same as six days to us. I've already said that God, most likely, does not experience time the same way we do. He CREATED time.

[Lief Erikson]

You know what, Emplynx, that entirely depends upon your definition of 6 days. I mean, when Jesus came down to Earth in the New Testament, shortly before he rose back to heaven he said that he'd be coming back soon. Several centuries later I don't think of as 'soon,' by human standards, but it could well be by heavenly standards. I mean, come on! In heaven we're talking about eternity!

Earniel, I think it's a mistake to judge the Bible the way you are, just as it might be a mistake for some Christians to hold too rigidly to the interpretation they have held of it up till now. Creation and Evolution don't necessarily disagree. Sometimes God uses natural means to bring about divine ends, like when he used Assyria to punish the Israelites in the Old Testament. Notice that he didn't use an army of angels or demons. He may have used evolution to create life.

[Artanis]

Wow, this is incredible, this thread is only 2 days old, and there's already 5 pages! It's clearly an engaging topic.

I agree with IronParrot and BoP in that evolution is a scientific theory and creation is a faith. Really I don't see how anyone can compare a scientific theory to a religious belief? Good scientists are evaluating their theories by carrying out repeatable experiments according to strict rules. Note that a scientific theory can never be proved, only made more or less plausible. It must be rejected at the first scientific observation that contradicts it, and possibly replaced by a new and refined theory. Whereas religious belief, or faith, comes from an inner, personal experience that cannot be evaluated, and by nature does not need to be made plausible, at least not in the scientific sense. If you believe in God then you naturally believe in creation, and vice versa, and any attempt to either prove or disprove (doesn't sound right, is it the right word?) it is folly.

Answer to the original question: Yes, I think evolution should be taught in school, because it is the dominating scientific theory that seek to explain what humans are in biological terms. And I also think the main worldwide religions should be taught in school, as it broadens the mind and helps to understand societies everywhere better. The overall principles of evolution and the main foundations of the religions should be taught to everyone, but leave the heavier stuff to those who take special interest in it.

[webwizard333]

I don't know about you, but my bible gives a clear account of creation of the universe, and it has nothing to do with god creating a one celled organism that evovled into other things.

Funny, mine gives me two different Creation accounts.

[Starr Polish]

IronParrot:

The Hebrews who wrote it.

Really? I wasn't aware they ones who actually wrote it were still alive. Perhaps we should alert the Guiness Book of World Records. They may have to change "oldest person alive".

[Lief Erikson]

Well, Ironparrot, the experience I speak of is hearing God speak through his inspired Word. And that's not something I can very easily explain to a nonbeliever. It's a spiritual experience.


You know what, I think that argument between Creation and Evolution is pretty pointless. People thinking evolution is the only truth, when they try to use that against Christianity don't succeed, and neither do Christians who try to disprove evolution. There isn't any way of saying that God didn't do it, as it isn't in the Bible that he didn't. It's all a matter of personal belief.

[Aeryn]

I found something really cute while trying to find some info on EVOLUTION.

Evolution by Jame H Hunter
Once I was a tadpole, grubbing in the mire,
Till I became ambitious and started to aspire;
I rubbed my tale so vigorously against a sunken log,
It disappeared completely, and I became a frog!

I struggled from my puddle and I jumped upon dry land,
And the feeling that was in me was glorious and grand;
It made me kind of frisky, so I hopped around a tree,
Till I landed on the branches, just as happy as could be.

And there I spent some aeons evoluting without fail,
Till I became a monkey, and grew another tail!
But still I had ambitions as the aeons wuickly sped,
So I descened from the tree, and walked the earth instead.

Till my tail got tired with trailing on thehard ground every day,
And twice within my process that appendage passed away.
Once again I evoluted, and, believe it if you can,
I awoke one summer morning and I found myself a man!

Now you tadpoles in the mire, just think what you may be,
If you'll only in your puddles start to climb the family tree!
I am the genus homo finished for all the world to see;
For when I told my story, I was giv'n a Ph.D.