Sauron's Spirit Inside the Ring

[Varda]

My college roommate and I have come up with many different theories about LOTR. Her dad is a geologist, so the volcano (Mt. Doom) was always interesting. I was just thinking that since Sauron's... er.. spirit? life force? influence? was in the ring... when the ring was released into the fires of Mt. Doom, does it make sense for Sauron's power to have no more affect? Would he be incapacitated? Or was the gold of the ring simply a vessel (sp?), a thing for carrying the power of Sauron... wouldn't the power that was in the ring have spread through the mountain and through the earth?

So was Sauron ultimately dead? or after the 3rd age was over, was it possible that he was still there in other forms?

[Strange-Looking Lurker]

Interesting. It would seem that Sauron's power was what held the ring together, so when a force strong enough to break that power (and hence the ring) was applied, it destroyed the power. So you might think of the destruction of the ring as merely a side effect of the destruction of the power in the ring. Just a theory anyway. Any other thoughts people?

[azalea]

The way I understand it is that the ring was forged by Sauron and much of his power was transferred to the ring. When it was destroyed, the power was destroyed, too. Thus Sauron was in effect destroyed. The reason he made the ring rather than just keeping the power within himself was that by forging the ring he was able to control the other rings.

[Blackheart]

Errr. There's good reason for another theory however.

The vast majority of power in the ring wasn't Sauron's at all. It was Morgoth's.

Morgoth invested much of his power into Arda (particularly into gold) and it's been pointed out (In works like "Morgoth's ring") that his Chief Lt. would need much of this power to be a dark lord.

On his own, remember, he was a maia, powerful, but not any more powerful than a balrog for example. But Sauron was a student of Aule at first, and one of the most skilled. If anyone could find a way to tap into the power Morgoth invested into Arda (think of it as a sort of pool of resident evil) it would be him.

When he forged the ring, he did indeed have to put a lot of his power into it, to bind the power. But unless it was some kind of power multiplier (assuming Tolkien unconsiously or consciously loosely followed the laws of energy conservation) where did all this "god-like" power come from? The power to cover the land in a second darkness and crush all resistance, such that here was no forseeable end.

From the original dark lord.

Most everything that Sauron did in the second age was done using the power of the ring. (except for his little excursion to Westernesse) The foundations of Baradur, the reconstruction of his second body (after the little excursion) etc.

When the ring passed into the fire, not only was the power of Morgoth unbound, but the power he had invested to bind it was also lost to him. Everything he did with that power passed also, the foundations of the dark tower, and even his second body. Basically he is doomed to be a wandering gnawing shadow until the end of time.

On a similar note, elf fans may not want to hear it, but the power of the other great rings probably also sprang from the same source. WHich means that Rivendell, and Lorien were maintained in a timeless state by use of the power of the dark foe! The rings were "untouched" however, so in this case it seems to be a control issue. The power was power, and able to be used for such purposes, without corrupting the user.. or at least one with the will to use it.

When the one ring passed, and the power of Morgoth was again scattered into Arda, the other great rings ceased to function also.

There's been quite a bit of discussion on this, and I'm sure you can find more information.

[Tar-Elendil]

if this has already been said, please forgive me...you have to think about what happened, after the one passed, to the three elven rings.. the power that held the land of Lórien for so long, Nenya, Galadriel's ring, was now diminished..sauron used the power of the one to create much of his evils, so therefore when the one passed Barad-dûr crumbled and his soldiers ran around mindless on the field of cormallen..if u take what happened to Lórien and compare it to Sauron and Mordor, it makes much sense.

[Tar-Elendil]

it seems i just repeated what blackheart said but in short

[Lightice]

Sauron wasn't actually destroyed by destruction of the Ring. Instead, when it was destroyed, all might he had forged into it, was lost forever, and he lost all his potential, becoming only a small spirit of darkness without power to grow or take shape. Gandalf said it at one point, but I can't remember where.

[Tar-Elendil]

after he had made himself a body witht he power of the ring after the destruction of Númenor, he was seperated from the ring and his spirit fled..he couldnt create himself another body...aye it does say in the return of the king "..it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vest threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell."
Sauron lost his power but he still remained a spirit to remain unhappily

[Blackheart]

Interesting. I was always of the opinion that he did have access to his "second body", esle how would Gollum be saying "he only has nine fingers" and such?

[Ñólendil]

And I am of the opinion that he has one humanoid body which includes a great, flaming Eye, for the same reason.

[Blackheart]

Now now, did anyone ever SEE the eye? Or was it merely a manifestation of his presence through a medium like the ring or the palantir?

[Ñólendil]

Frodo saw the Eye in the Mirror of Galadriel, and there was a red light associated with it seen at the top of Barad-dur, through a window I believe

[Blackheart]

Hmmm. Kind of iffy...

Gollum is an "eye" witness.. hehe- I'm a naughty naughty punster

What does he mention about the eye?

[Andúril]

Sauron became a flaming eyeball with nine fingers jutting out the sides...

[cian]

Imo Tolkien explains that Sauron (ultimately) was physical in the Third Age. He described that the form that Sauron took was that of a man of more than human stature but not gigantic. And:

"I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished."
JRRT 1957

JRRT also explains (in Letters) that after the Last Alliance it took Sauron longer to rebuild his 'body' -- "longer" than it had after the fall of Númenor. The Prof concludes the explanation (ie about the 'body' rebuilding and etc.) with:

"The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book." JRRT

Note 're-building' is impossible after the "destruction", not loss of the One. There are several other quotes regarding the physicality of Sauron, one involving (for a specific Third Age time frame) the PalantÃ*r struggle with Aragorn -- but I'm going to end with my cookie analogy rather than babble on.

If I say: "... the second batch of cookies took longer than the first.", I would not actually expect (anyway) the retort (or similar): "So you mean the second batch was never completed?"

My opinion in a nutshell: Sauron ultimately rebuilt his physicality in the Third Age, and Gollum saw 'real' enough fingers on the self-incarnated body of Sauron -- that of a "very terrible" Man of imposing stature.

This general point has come up a lot lately due to the recent film. *Not in any particular defense of Mr. Jackson* you understand, but I will say that if he were to depict Sauron at the end of RotK, for example, as having a physical & destructible 'body', he would not be stepping on the authors 'mythic concept' of Sauron -- what Mr. Jackson may or man not choose to "step on" _in a storial way_ is another question however. Cheers

[Blackheart]

Pretty much.

Which I think also explains why he wasn't able to take on a pleasing form again after the downfall.

So he's been through 3 bodies.

The "original".

The one after the downfall of Numenor.

And the one after the loss of the ring.

[JenniferTook]

Ya, I think he could only take form after being destroyed (before the ring was destroyed) because the ring was still around. Sauron obviously put a lot of his own power into the ring, or he would never had needed it to come back. I believe that he put enough of himself into it, that he couldn't live unless the ring was still sound. If it was destroyed, enough of Sauron was destroyed that he couldn't exist any longer.

Jennifer

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by JenniferTook
.... enough of Sauron was destroyed that he couldn't exist any longer.

Jennifer

Physically.

However, I wonder if it might have been possible for followers to construct a body for him, or render a victim amenable to possesion?

Interesting speculation.

[cian]

I dunno about that, but JRRT did write: "... for of course the shadow will arise again in a sense (as is clearly foretold by Gandalf), but never again (unless it be before the great End) will an evil daemon be incarnate as a physical enemy; ..."

OK, so I really just wanted to add that 'cause it had "... incarnate as a physical enemy" in it

[Blackheart]

Yeah, but would it be possible??