Should evolution be taught in schools?

[Rían]

Thanks, Lizra - I'm enjoying it, too And how can you not believe in "fantastical" miracles? The fact that I can get several coherent sentences strung together here while 2 kids and a big hairy dog keep running thru the study is a miracle!!

And I really DO have a point, BoP and Lizra, which I should be able to post tonight, after said kiddos are in bed and the dog settles down. This is a complex subject, and I would like to be able to really think about and post my point in relative calm. Sorry I can't post as quickly as I'd like, but like the tortoise, I do eventually get there .

[Lizra]

Hmmm, my problem is the tyrannical 6 year old, "are you done yet, MOM!!!Are you done yet, you said I could play my game , are you done yet" SCREAM! (I'm the one screaming) I'd love to hear your point Rian, Believe me when I say that. I have tried every way possible to go for the "Christian" line. Sometimes I'm almost jealous that I can't be one! It seems like such a simple life. How fullfiling it would be if all I had to do was read, study, and discuss with others (every Sunday) the "way to salvation and happiness". I am very good at being a "good girl"! I did it for years as a child. (and I'm doing it now of course! ) I have some good friends who are very Christian, they would love nothing more than to have me join them, It would be good for the children, Christians are such nice people....BUT, I am like Afro Elf, I need some sort of proof that I can sincerely believe in. To be very blunt, I can not have faith in something that deep down I think is a bunch of hooey made up by the ancients because they knew nothing, and then fanned and fired for all it's worth into a political power system. The "evolution, creation problem" is probably the #1 sticking point with me! I am not a hypocrite, therefore, I can't subscribe to the christian "faith", because I simply do not believe it. So if you can expose something new, great, "make my day"! (You are very sweet to try !

[Rían]

Well, going back to the subject of this thread, “Should Evolution be Taught in Schools�, I would answer: “Sure – I don’t think it’s the correct model for what we can observe, but it is a model with some good points, so go ahead. But I ask you to have integrity and refer to it as a theory, not a fact. And I also would ask you to present any other reasonable models that are out there, such as creation by intelligent design (you don’t even need to mention the God of the Christian faith), which is also a model with some good points, to be fair to the students. And please present the applicable scientific evidence in an unbiased way.�

So, one more time, what I’ve been trying to show on this thread is that (1)the theory of evolution is not in itself a fact, but (2)it is a theory about some facts (just like creation by intelligent design). This may seem like a small thing, but it’s not, because the ramifications involved are HUGE! (The word “not�, which is a small word, may be in a very long sentence with lots of big words, but take it out, and there are big ramifications too!!) And I have seen several posts that come out and say that the theory of evolution is indeed a fact. I hope that they will honestly and logically consider what I have posted here in this thread.

And “what I’m working at� is this - phrase #(1) says that there is NO intelligent design behind creation, while phrase #(2) admits that intelligent design IS a possibility (again, as I’ve mentioned in earlier posts, I’m not dealing with the theory of Theistic evolution – if you accept that, even though I think it’s wrong, at least you are open to the possibility of the existence of God.) So if you really think the theory of evolution is absolute fact or truth, as opposed to a theory, however reasonable a theory, then you will never even consider an alternative theory, however reasonable it may be. And you will not even take time for a rational and serious consideration of the question “Is there a God? And if so, what does that mean for me?� And that would be tragic.

As a Christian, I believe in absolute truth, and that the absolute truth is with the God of the Bible. (BTW, the whole “buffet-line� approach to “religion� (well, that religion is good for them, and I kinda like this one for now, but maybe I’ll change to another one later) is actually the belief that there is no absolute truth.) And, as I stated earlier, as a Christian, I believe that every person is a created being of GREAT worth, and that’s why I’ve taken the time to post here – to present some information that will at least take away a barrier to your considering the very important question mentioned above.

I’m sorry I can’t address here the many logical reasons for accepting the Christian faith as the truth – that would really be outside the scope of this thread! Besides, if I could convince you guys in a few posts, then there wouldn’t be much to the Christian faith, would there? But I will be glad to discuss this issue off-line with anyone who is interested via email or PM.

Thanks so much everyone who has thoughtfully considered these issues, and you guys are in my prayers (whether you like it or not!! )

Very Sincerely, RÃ*an (aka Sharon )

[Rían]

Originally posted by Lizra
[B]Hmmm, my problem is the tyrannical 6 year old, "are you done yet, MOM!!!Are you done yet, you said I could play my game , are you done yet" SCREAM! (I'm the one screaming)

LOL! Especially the part about YOU screaming! That was funny (and all too often true.... )

... It seems like such a simple life. How fullfiling it would be if all I had to do was read, study, and discuss with others (every Sunday) the "way to salvation and happiness".

OMGoodness, no wonder you aren't a Christian!! How terribly unfulfilling that sounds!!!! The Christian life is the most difficult thing around (for one of the major issues it addresses is the sin in our lives, which we are really very attached to and don't want to give up), and yet the most fulfilling. Just like a marriage is so much more difficult than just dating, but so much more deeper and fulfilling!

I am very good at being a "good girl"! I did it for years as a child. (and I'm doing it now of course! )

How depressing it is to be good with no relationship involved - Christians are "good" (when they are good, which certainly doesn't happen as much as they would like, at least in my case ) because they obey the reasonable and beneficial rules set out by God out of a love for God. Like a child with good and loving parents who obeys the reasonable and beneficial rules that they set down that are for her good - it is joyful.

I have some good friends who are very Christian, they would love nothing more than to have me join them, It would be good for the children, Christians are such nice people....

ARG! Christians are nice, Christians are obnoxious, Christians are smart, Christians are not so smart ... they are real people that believe in the absolute truths expressed in the Bible and act on that belief. But the amazing thing about them is that they, if they are truly seeking God's ways, are improving - God makes permanant changes in Christians from the inside out, not just temporary surface fixes. And that's so wonderful!

BUT, I am like Afro Elf, I need some sort of proof that I can sincerely believe in. To be very blunt, I can not have faith in something that deep down I think is a bunch of hooey made up by the ancients because they knew nothing, and then fanned and fired for all it's worth into a political power system. The "evolution, creation problem" is probably the #1 sticking point with me! I am not a hypocrite, therefore, I can't subscribe to the christian "faith", because I simply do not believe it. So if you can expose something new, great, "make my day"! (You are very sweet to try !

I'm so glad you're not a hypocrite, it is so hard to talk to one! Shall we continue in emails? I hope the admins aren't too mad at me by now, but I was addressing the points in a post, and I'd be glad to pull it off-line (I'd also be glad to keep talking in this thread, if they'll let me )

[Rían]

(darn double posts - computer is slower than molasses now )

[cassiopeia]

I see what you are saying, and it is reasonable, but I think its more 'plausible' that evolution occured and that we are not created by some divine being. I have given this matter a lot of thought since this thread came up - I even borrowed a book to read, even though I have exams coming up. I, too, am an agnostic - I don't believe that you can prove the existence of God. You can never prove anything in science, so we will never prove that evolution does occur. But there is so much evidence for evolution that I cannot see any other way. I really wish that there was a God and that He created us as special and intelligent beings - but I really can't swallow it. The scientist in me says "No, there is a simpler explanation, you don't need a divine being." I actually just read some scientific facts that may be interpreted as the universe was created by a devine being. But that would not be good for my argument (although I could problably refute them).

[Lief Erikson]

Lizra, I can completely understand your feelings, your need to have something firm to believe in and not some "faith." I can understand Afro elf's reasons too, and both of you are making sense. And I can tell you, it was exactly the same way with my Dad before he became a Christian, and I also needed badly some evidence of God's existence, although it was different for me then it was for my Dad and you two.

Let me tell you now, God can understand this need for a basis of faith. You can't simply have faith in something and hope it's there. For you to have faith, you need to have some reason to believe that God exists, and he can understand that.

My Dad needed that too. He's a mathmetician and an educated scientist, just for the record . He didn't believe that God existed for a long time, but then he became a little smarter and realized that his own judgement was a human judgement, and therefore fallible. He prayed that God would prove his existence to him, if he did exist. So my Dad prayed that the Lord would show him his existence by some real evidence. I'm not sure how my Dad would feel about my describing what he prayed for. But Dad set a time limit on its happening as well, to give him added evidence, so that a year or so from then he wouldn't be wondering whether he'd be answered or not.

God answered his prayer, and he brought my Dad to himself. Now he is a Christian, and he has a reason to have faith. His faith has a reason for existing, and my Dad walks with the Lord.

I myself was sent an emptiness that couldn't be filled, and I realized that that emptiness was a need for God. I prayed that God would fill it, and the Lord answered my prayer and touched my heart, and spoke to me, and I heard his voice.

And I have a reason for my faith, and I believe.

Christianity is an experiential religion, for God wants us to believe in him, not simply hope in him. Those people who haven't encountered him but call themselves Christian merely hope. Those who have come to know him believe.

I can completely understand any of you having trouble believing in something for which there is no evidence, and the only evidence for Christianity's truth is the eye witness reports, and the personal testimonies. I also am completely willing to email any of you on this subject and others.

[Lizra]

Rian, we can continue in our emails, we've gone too off topic. LE thank you for the insight!

[Lief Erikson]

Cassiopeia, I just read your post; I was writing my last one as you sent it. Evolution really isn't against Christianity. I don't know whether I believe it or disbelieve it, but I do believe in the loving God that you wish existed. The manner in which he created all things is less important, really, although it can be exciting to find out, if we can find it out. That really is all that evolution is, is a theory, or near fact, or whatever anyone wants to call it, of how God created all things. The difference in belief is simply whether he used that method to create all things, whether he did it some other way, or whether everything just sprang into being without a God.

I don't believe that science can ever possibly find any sort of solution as to why matter or anything at all exists. Matter and everything that physically exists has to have come from somewhere, it can't simply, by science, have always been, in one form or another. At the beginning there has to have been something/someone to start everything, and create the first matter. That spark cannot have been from some weird variety of chemicals, for these chemicals would have had to have come from somewhere, and so on.

This point of view is possibly arguable, I suppose, but I personally don't see how. Perhaps one of you readers of this thread will be interested in clashing with this idea of a necessary 'divine breath.' But I don't see how you can think that something can have always existed.

[cassiopeia]

I do have some problem imagining the Big Bang - the creation of the universe. How could all this matter around us be not there and then suddenly something happens and particles and energy are created. I would prefer that the universe is static, but the envidence is that it is not. But does this imply a God? I don't think that anyone will ever find the anwer to this, but it's fun to ponder! (I think we are going way OT here )

[Lief Erikson]

I personally am of the belief that it does imply a divine origin, because everything has to come from somewhere, including the particles that started the Big Bang, if it happened (Which, for the record, I don't believe it did). Something can't come from nothing, no matter what that something is, or what form it takes. The Creator, on the other hand, doesn't have to come from something, because he doesn't follow the laws of science and matter, but rather was the one who made them.

Well, we can all have our own opinions on that topic though, and a few of us might even have opinions on the making of the universe . You're right, the Big Bang is rather far afield from "Should evolution be allowed in schools?" It should probably have its own topic.

[afro-elf]

BH once had a post that said SOMETHING like this

You can't prove anything. the best you can do is gather a ponderance of evidence and make an assumption

Science is the an endeavor based on it. Faith or me is similar to what ambrose pierce wrote:

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

Of course it is a sarcastic remark but you get the point

I was not trying to offend with the above

[Lief Erikson]

No offense is taken.

Here's my definition of faith in God:

You believe that God exists, that he acts, that he is loving, and that he knows best.


This is my belief:

Faith comes with knowledge, and it is very difficult, or well nigh impossible to gain this faith without having some reason to believe. Some people perhaps are able to have faith without knowledge, but I call this hope rather than faith, even if they call it faith.

I believe that faith begins when God divinely reveals his existence to you. I believe that faith comes only when you have a basis, or reason for belief, and that God is willing to supply an individual with that reason. God wants people to rest on him, and to come to know him intimitely. His will is perfect and righteous, and because of this, he wants all people to follow his will. He loves each individual dearly and wants all the world to come to know and believe in him.

[afro-elf]

But that kind of Knowledge is qualitative not quantitative.

I was there once and it was my need to believe.

I gotta run sorry I can't post more

[Lief Erikson]

The proof of God's existence may be qualitative to the outsider. I'm not trying to prove to you that God exists, for trying to accomplish such a thing would be impossible. God wants Christians to have faith anyway, and if it was possible to prove his existence, then there would be no reason for such faith, you could simply scientifically know. Science seeks to discover all that it can about ecology, nature, the cosmos, etc. Science seeks to understand what exists and the way it works.

Christians believe, therefore, that science seeks to understand more about God's creation. God made things, and he probably made things so that they are largely self supportive. Although I could be wrong on that one.

I'm not attempting to prove to any of you that God exists. Science doesn't go against Christianity. For quite some time I thought that it did, but now that I've been introduced to this thread it has been shown to me just how lacking the evidences science has against God are. Science can give explanations for things, and show, perhaps, some small amount of how God made things. It is very interesting research, and I applaud the pursuit of science. But simply because you know, or have evidence to believe that this is the way that God made things . . . that doesn't follow that he wasn't the creator, but is a superstitious belief held by the ignorant and protected by ignorance.

It says in the Bible: "Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you." God answers those who seek him, and reveals himself to them. Then the evidence becomes quantitative to that believer, and they can have faith.

[Lizra]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson


"I'm not attempting to prove to any of you that God exists. Science doesn't go against Christianity. For quite some time I thought that it did, but now that I've been introduced to this thread it has been shown to me just how lacking the evidences science has against God are. Science can give explanations for things, and show, perhaps, some small amount of how God made things. "

How God made things!? That is your opinion. Science can show how things are made, you put the "God" part in!

" It is very interesting research, and I applaud the pursuit of science. But simply because you know, or have evidence to believe that this is the way that God made things"

Once again, The God part doesn't fit in here.

. . ." that doesn't follow that he wasn't the creator, "

It also doesn't follow that he was, so nothing is realized here.

"but is a superstitious belief held by the ignorant and protected by ignorance. "

I not sure what you are saying here, my first reaction is to think this is a good description of religion, but I doubt that was what you were inferring!



"It says in the Bible: "Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you." God answers those who seek him, and reveals himself to them. Then the evidence becomes quantitative to that believer, and they can have faith.

"


If you veiw the bible as fiction, then this gives you nothing, just another "heavy" statement.

[Lief Erikson]

Lizra, I think that from your response it is safe to say that you missed the point of what I was saying.

You're quite right in most of your objections to what I was saying, you simply weren't realizing that you and I weren't disagreeing.

I was speaking of God from the Christian standpoint when I said that science shows some things of what God did when he created. I am completely aware that science doesn't say God existed.

When I said it doesn't follow that he was the creator, I am completely aware that it also doesn't show he was. I believe that I actually said myself in that same post you were quoting from, "I'm not trying to prove to you that God exists, for trying to accomplish such a thing would be impossible. God wants Christians to have faith anyway, and if it was possible to prove his existence, then there would be no reason for such faith, you could simply scientifically know. Science seeks to discover all that it can fabout ecology, nature, the cosmos, etc. Science seeks to understand what exists and the way it works."

I know that many people do hold the view that Christianity and other religions are all superstitions held by the ignorant and protected by ignorance. I have already asserted and maintained that science doesn't and cannot prove Christianity, for Christianity gets into the spiritual realm and morals and other things that science isn't and cannot cover in the manner that it is.

Now please listen to this example, and see if you understand what I'm trying to say.

If you want to dig a hole to plant a flower bed, and you also want to build a car, then you would go to the store at which you can get each set of tools. You would go to a technical store to get your mechanical equipment for the car and then you would go to a planting oriented store to get your shovel and seeds. Science cannot go to the technical store for a shovel and seeds, which is what it's trying to do with Christianity. Of course there will be a lacking of evidence!

The only way to get your evidence is to go down to the flower store and get your seeds and your shovel there. Then go and see if you can plant with this, rather than the car construction tools. That is what I am encouraging you all to do. We all agree that science doesn't prove or disprove Christianity, for obviously it cannot be used for such a purpose. However, simply because you cannot dig a hole and plant flowers using car equipment, don't give up all together! The gardener is offering every person the tools. God wants every person to come to know him, and he is waiting for people to turn to him and to ask if he exists.

[Lizra]

I see what your saying, but I don't feel it's totally logical. Yes, you need the proper tools to do a job. But if the "job" is a make believe ideal, (this so called" spiritual realm", nice words, means nothing), then the logic of the statement looses its meaning for me. An apples to apples thing I guess. I'm not sure what you mean when you say science cannot go for the shovel and seeds. Science disproves "miracles" (for me). I can not think of one "honest to God" miracle that has been documented in modern times. Yet it is common place in the Bible. Why don't you believe the black and gold books of all the other religions? Well, I'm glad you believe and it works for you. I need realistic proof. Therefore, I think evolution should be taught in schools, and shudder when it isn't .

[Starr Polish]

Most ofthe Christians on this board have said what I wanted to say, in a much more eloquent way .

I agree with Rian, TRUE Christianity is very, very hard. Saying you believe in God and Jesus doesn't mean oof: your life is all happy because God is with you. Since I've become Christian I've had some of the worst trials in my life, including 9-11, and having to overcome some personal issues as well. There are so many things that I want to hold onto and I try to convince myself that they aren't sins, but I know (in my heart of hearts) that they are. It's incredibly frustrating!

[Rían]

Oh my goodness, so many good posts here today and I'm WAY too tired to post on anything but easy subjects! (see venting thread for reason why I'm tired.... ) I'll check in again as soon as I'm less tired.

BTW, Lizra (and others ), I wish you could have been with me in church today - great sermon - I think it would have blown some of your ideas about Christianity away. It was on Luke chapter 7, verses 36 thru 50. Check it out, if you want to, and we can continue thru emails!