The worst change in FOTR

[orald]

I thank you bropous,for your political correctness,and kind advice,but it's not needed here.I typed a phrase,that used no racist words,especially a paticular word,that everyone on the planet considers racist,including myself,but the phrase with in itself is to distinguish a broken bloodline,that is usually noticeable through site.There are many references to broken bloodlines,and creeds all over the world,not all are racist,unless you inject a racist remark,or word,or maybe assume that word is being used,as such the case with you bropous.I am talking about humans,and elves,in a fictional setting that would not be noticable through color of skin, bropous.As far as the rest of your reply to my post,who cares.

[Billadillo]

Orald:

Originally posted by orald

Hmmmmmm.......Arwen not a full elf?Wheres the human in the wood pile,on this one?

Arwen is half-elven. Her mother, Celebrian, is an elf, while her father, Elrond, is a half-elf.

Both Elrond's parents, Earendil & Elwing, were also half-elven. You can trace thier lines all the way back to Tuor & Idril and Beren & Luthien (respectively).

Half-elven = name given to those who share descent from Elves and Men.

Bropus:

...even Frodo was able, as a simple hobbit, to resist, for a few moments, the command of the Nine to return across the Ford, and wasn't wearing the One Ring at the time.

Yes, Frodo was able to resist for a few brief moments. But his resistance is utterly futile in the face of the Nine Riders. I don't have my copy of LOTR here, but I know he says something like "Go back to Mordor" and raises his sword. His defiance has absolutely no effect on them. They mock his futile attempt, saying something like "come here and we will take you back to Mordor with us!" Then the sheer force of their malicious power breaks his sword and knocks him over.

Perhaps Arwen could have been slightly more formidable, but I don't think her heritage alone makes her immune from their terrible power. Elves, as cool as they are, still fear Sauron, the Riders, and the other evil things in the world. Again, I don't have my book, but doesn't Legolas cry out in Moria, "Ai! Ai! A Balrog! We are doomed!"

I think I would have been willing to accept Arwen's character, and it would have been more consitant with the characters if, when she says "come and get him" the Nine would have laughed at her, and her sword would have broken, and she would have been knocked silly. Then maybe Elrond, sensing her danger could have summoned the flood...

Oh, well, I'm not here to rewrite the movie, but I will not back down from my claim that Arwen's role was the one black spot marring on an otherwise impressive film.

[bropous]

Wel, Billadillo, we'll just call this one a friendly disagreement. You do make some good points there.

As for you, orald, the fact you knew exactly what term to which I referred shows you knew what you were saying in the first place. Terrible attitudes for a Tolkien fan. Political correctness my hindquarters, it was patently offensive, but to avoid devolving into a flamefest, I'll just make use of the "ignore" function and just keep talking to folks worth talking to. I'll bid you a good day and wish you good luck.

[arrogantprick]

Re: my comments on the elven ring issue.

I have learned something and stand corrected. It has been a long, long time since I read the appendices. Thanks

Is it necessary however, for people such as Lightice, to be so condescending and patronising when it comes to such matters. I for one think his behaviour would be considered most rude in Middle Earth, as it certainly is on this one.

[bropous]

Agreed, AP, but maybe you can forgive Lightice for a bit of zealous defense of opinions, like you did me and Pailan, and then mayhaps future posts from that source will be more polite, without a hint of condescension! ;- )

You taught me, a bit of magnanimity goes a long way...and besides, ain't a one of us knows the Master's works word for word...to me, that's the beauty of the Lord of the Rings...no matter how many times through, one ALWAYS finds a new detail one missed. Me, twenty-four times through the trilogy to date, and I'm still learning from the Entmoot. Good on ALL of you! You are one heck of a group of Tolkien scholars!

A thousand thanks to whomever started "Entmoot," and thanks to the hard-working administrators too. [Wiping brown stuff off nose...]

[arrogantprick]

Agreed Bropous......I have the burden of my own zealotry to bear and to apologise for also.

Perhaps you should promote yourself to Bropous the white.....you show much wisdom.

Lightice, wherever you are, please accept my apologies for anything you may have taken as rudeness, that was not my intent. Perhaps we may start again. Who knows, we may even learn from each other.

[orald]

Bropous,for someone who calls others jerks,(you used that on someone else)for disagreeing with you.Then condems others,for criticizing someone else's posts,then turning completely around and taking that critics side,and condeming the person you previously defended,makes me think you just like to criticize(this was all done on this thread).Then to imply someone a racist,when I used no racist remark,nor mentioned skin color whatesover,when talking about elves,and humans.And you assume I am refering to the color of someone's skin.Yes,I do know the word you are refering to,and whoever uses it,should be labeled a racist.I just hope bropous,that when I get almost 40 years old,such as yourself,I will not be so narrow minded,and jump at the chance to assume what people are thinking.I feel sorry for people such as yourself,that tries to paint someone something,based on assumption alone.And I mostly disagreed with your posts,but read them,because I thought you had interesting things to say,I also bid you adieu

[liza disavino]

To Bropus's <<<However, I do not see how including the battle scenes of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men "blows the punch line". Could you please elaborate>>> Sure. For me, pacing is as much a part of storytelling/moviemaking as diaglogue or action; it creates the feeling of the story. It's a major element. Tokein's pacing was to start small and have the story spiral out into bigger and bigger worlds and bigger and bigger dangers. The pacing, the motion of the storytelling itself sweeps you along with it. It's like starting a piece of music quietly, and adding instrument by instrument until you reach a huge climax. That, I think, was Tolkein's chosen texture. Jackson, however, started with the biggest, most dramatic scene of Movie One. To me, it felt like starting with a blown-up balloon, then letting all the air out. Having said all that, I too thought the actual footage itself of the battle between Sauron and the Last Alliance was fantastic. I just thought it was misplaced, and would have had a greater effect at the Council of Elrond, where Tolkein reveals it. (For the horror to be at last revealed in full, and for Frodo to then volunteer to take the ring was a pivotal moment that I really missed. It was a lost character climax of sorts, and one that defines Frodo from that moment on. ) But, as someone else pointed out, maybe Jackson was afraid audiences wouldn't be patient enough to wait for the blow-out stuff, so he put it up front. So my point is, Jackson chose a different pacing than Tolkein, and one that I thought was not as effective. Still in all, a great movie, lots of fun, some great moments, visually amazing, well-cast, and I admire all the work that went into it. BTW, my comments are not meant in any way to be derogatory to anyone who disagrees with me, nor to Jackson himself. But half the fun of experiencing an artistic work is figuring out what could have made it better. I think that helps us all to learn to think more creatively. For that reason, I'm really enjoying these boards!

[fedos]

A style suited for a book doesn't always work for a movie. Although Tolkien's style probably could have been easily used in the film, Mr Jackson was likely looking for a way to keep those who are new to LOTR a reason to wait for the next episode.

I went to see the movie with two others, one of whom had not read the books. When the credits appeared on the screen, he couldn't believe it was over, he was wanting more. I bet this is exactly the reaction PJ wanted.

[Nibs Cotton]

Saw the movie lastnight,and thought it wonderful.Have to say it was better than expected,and going back again.

[Nenya]

I am a newbie, and I haven't had time to read everything everyone has said on this subject, but I thought I'd give my opinion anyway, so sorry if you have already heard any of this!

1) The film was amazing, the scenery was great, especially Argonath (have I spelt that right?)

2) I think PJ was right to leave out characters like Tom Bombadil and GLorfindel; they would make the film too complicated, especially for people who have not read the books.

3) The thing that annoyed me was Lothlorien. Galadriel was good, I thought they might make her too benign, but she was actually quite scary. But whether she was scary or not, Lothlorien was supposed to be beautiful, and a haven, but I thought they made it too dark, and the characters all seemed a bit too pleased to get out of there.

In general though, I think it was as good a job as anyone could have done, and you can't expect it to be perfect or we would al still be in the cinemas now, and not here discussing it!

[coolismo]

Peter Jackson has just submitted a script for the book of genesis to New Line Cinema. Here are some of his changes.
'In the beginning' in fact Cain and Able will feature in a special preface and the Earth will be started on Tuesday and finished by thursday midday.
God will not rest on the seventh day as this tarrying about loses the momentum of the plot.
In fact the Earth will now be created by a conflict between God and a newly created character called Destructon. In a spectacular fight scene Destructon throws God off the Mountain he had himself created on Tuesday. Jackson says this scene may not be in the book but he wants the film to be about both creation and destruction.
Destructon will make a devastating karate chop to God's ribcage and will rip out the rib to create Adamaton who will be the male lead. Adamaton will be rescued by Eveling whose character will be beefed up to steroid like proportions. The two will make for the tree kingdom after Destructon is toppled by an angry sea created by God at Evelings command on Wednesday.
The One apple will be offered to Eveling by Satanicon servant of Destructon but it wont be clear if the apple is commanding Adamaton or who is the real master.
The characters will not be naked but wear specially designed body suits inspired by figleafs and will frolic to a soundtrack by vangelis and Boy2Men.
The whole mess will be reconciled by the sudden and dramatic reappearance of Tom Bombadill in the final reel.

[bropous]

A hearty "welcome to the Moot" to you, Nibs Cotton, and to you, Nenya! Glad to have you two adding to the discussion.

Nenya, I can understand that Lothlorien may have seemed a bit too "dark", and it wasn't exactly how I pictured it, myself. However, I think it shows rather well how Lorien is i its "autumn" of years, that the power of Celeborn and Galdriel is fading, and that Lorien will not be around for a heck of a lot longer.

I think this is also shown, to a lesser extent, in Rivendell/Imladris.

Galadriel came over from Valinor in the First Age, and she is weary with the strain of living for so very long. As she ages, she becomes less powerful, and is just on the verge of heading West to return to the Undying Lands. I think the set design of Lothlorien is a good reflection of this reality.

[Nenya]

Yeah, I see that, but I think Galadriel herself portrayed that well enough. You must also remember that she is wielding Nenya, one of the three elven rings, untouched by Sauron, and as long as he doesn't have the One ring, they can be put to limited good use...to create Rivendell and Lothlorien. And both these places were supposed to beautiful, peaceful havens for the people who lived there, and places as yet untouched by the blackness spreading over the rest of Middle Earth. I do n't deny that there is a darker side to Lorien, as Sam said talking to Faramir in the Two Towers "It strikes me that folks take their peril with them into Lorien, and finds it there because they've brought it," the example being Boromir, and I thought that side of events was also portrayed well...I suppose it is a bit hard to have it both ways!

I htink it didn't help that I sat in the foyer of the cinema and read that chapter right before I went in! That still doesn't mean I liked the changes, but there you go...

[Butterburr]

There were so many great scenes left out and altered - the old willow/Tom Bombadil, Farmer Cotton, Frodo & Boromir at the end... but overall, it was a very good movie.

The scene I really wished they had left in was Gimli's reaction to Galadriel, especially when she gave him a lock of her hair.

[fedos]

The Tom Bombadil segment, although enjoyed by most LOTR fans (myself included), doesn't have any effect on the over-all plot except to show how unprepared our hobbits are for the world they're entering and to provide a short adventure.

The only mention to it later in the book is when it's asked at the Council if they should ask Bombadil to watch over the ring, which is of course dismissed.

The film uses other methods to demonstrate the naivete of the four heroes.

[jerseydevil]

Although I like Tom Bombadil too - I probably would have removed him from the movie too - or else shortened his part just to get Old Man Willow in there. But it would have slowed down the movie too much and he doesn't really have a role in the underlying plot.

As I said in another thread anyway - Jackson made The Lord of the Rings action movie - not The Lord of the Rings that is the book.

Based on his movie - I actually picture Jackson when he reads LOTR to just skip the chapters - The Old Forest, In the House of Tom Bombadil and Fog on the Barrow Downs. Or maybe he just has the action scenes highlighted and he just reads those.

I mean he even changed Short Cut to Mushrooms - from having dinner with Farmer Maggot - to Farmer Maggot chasing them and then them falling off a cliff. Obviously he thought that LOTR was too slow and needed a lot more action. Tom Bombadil's part is the slowest part of LOTR - he would have most likely had to change Tom Bombadil to some warrior that saves the hobbits from a whole army of Barrow Wights for it to satisfy him.

[coolismo]

'The Tom Bombadil segment, although enjoyed by most LOTR fans (myself included), doesn't have any effect on the over-all plot except to show how unprepared our hobbits are for the world they're entering and to provide a short adventure. '

I really do not agree. The Bombadil section is really a preface to much of the themes later in the book. Tom is a figure who is at one with nature and this makes him rather one dimensional. Later on we learn how 'oneness' has its shadow side in egotism, duplicity and schism. Tom is an introduction to some of the later aspects of the story.

[bropous]

Well, I must respectfully disagree on the issue of Tom Bombadil. He is totally unnecessary to the "big picture", and in attempting to squeeze the Fellowship and parts of the Two Towers into three hours and twenty minutes, Bombadil is certainly not all that sorely missed.

As for Peter Jackson just "skpping over bits" in his reading of the books, one really has no basis for that assertion. For all one knows, he may very well have gone through some extremely painful personal decisions as to which parts to leave in and which parts to leave out. We must recall that he shot another hour or two or so of additional footage we never saw, and that his "dream edit" was about four hours and forty-five minutes. That's an hour and twenty minutes of footage we never saw, and therein may very well be the "Holy Grail" which would transform of the more vocal detractors into worshippers of the film.

Hard choices to make, dear friends, and any one of us would have ended turning off at least a sizeable minority of Tolkien fans had we been saddled with his Herculean, and at times, thankless task.

[jerseydevil]

I agree that there is a lot of the movie not on the screen. I hope that his complete version will get put on DVD. I may change my mind about a lot of it.

But really Jackson's film version is non stop action. Some stuff never even happened in the book and he seemed to like to have a lot of conflict. He has a near fist fight at the Council of Elrond, the whole Saruman vs Gandalf scene. Like I said - he even changed having dinner with Farmer Maggot - to the hobbits being chased thorugh his garden. Granted Frodo states in the book that he had many run ins with Farmer Maggot like that when he was younger. With all the extended action scenes there wasn't time to really get to know the characters.

And true - I have no basis in saying that Jackson skips over parts in LOTR when he reads it. But why did he need to have battle scene after battle scene? I also realize that if I had made the movie - as I've often thought would be cool to do - people would have problems with it.

I've admitted to anyone that has asked me how the movie is - I tell them that I am the worst critic for the movie. I have to compare it to the book. If you haven't read the book then it's a great action film - I think it's a great action film. I just don't think that Jackson successfully brough LOTR to the screen - he may have brought his version to the screen and that's fine. But there are very few scenes that even resemble anything in the book.