Creation science

I have not posted in this thread yet, either, although I cannot claim to have kept up with things as I should have, lately. I do intend to go back over some of these longer posts soon and I will respond as seems fitting then, but I did have a few comments to make now. My apologies if anything I say here has already been beaten to death earlier

First of all, I will not presume to say that science has explained it all by any stretch of the imagination. Undoubtedly, there are a few things that they will prove to have been misinformed about, just as there are probably things that they have been absolutely correct on. So any item taken as scientific fact should be understood to be considered factual only by virtue of there not being a better idea that covers all the evidence.

It was mentioned about the age of the magnetic field of the earth being an indicator of age: the age of which one, then? There is evidence to indicate that this very same magnetic field has abruptly altered its' polarity numerous times in the past. How does this sort of puzzle factor in? Nor is this by far the only puzzle.

Tater, you mentioned about this fossil in the cliff. I do not presume to be a fully trained geologist, but I do have an interest in such things and I believe there are a few more mundane explanations that may be possible for this before we start searching for a more esoteric cause. One that leaps to my mind, considering the nature of the region's geology, is that this fossil may be in metamorphic rock. Or it may simply be that this prehistoric tree grew in a crack in this rock that existed when it was a seedling. I don't say you are wrong, just that there may be things you have not considered.

Perhaps I am dense, but I don't quite understand all the fuss. Evolution does not invalidate creation or vice versa. If anything, evolution increases the power and awe of God. Before I go on, let me say that when I refer to God, I mean that I do believe that there is a Prime Mover of the whole of existence. This Power was there in the Beginning and will be there when there is nothing else in all of infinity. I do not particularly care which name you care to put to this being. God serves as a nice, neat and concise term, so I will continue to use it.

I am in absolute awe of the thought that God created, out of the void, a spark that expanded to fill the entire universe with all of its' stars and nebulae and planets and the myriad little critters, of which man is only one, that live on those planets. That God KNEW the path that each little molecule of Creation would take from Big Bang to Big Crunch and beyond. Now a God that has power of this enormity is a God that I can believe in.
Perhaps our search for knowledge, be it spiritual, physical or moral is the key to it. It may not matter who is right because both sides are. Our faith sustains our belief and makes us want to reach out for understanding, because every part of the whole of creation that we come to understand brings us closer to God. Each new bit of knowledge gives us a greater appreciation for the magnificence of the creation that has been wrought.

I guess you could say that I believe in God because I can see the power of God in the world around me, in every particle of the universe. The universe seems rather like a fractal in this respect; Every level sort of replicates itself on a larger scale. We find orbits in atoms and galaxies. It seems to me that for everything to fit together and move together as beautifully as science shows us, there must be a greater Power that oversees the motion.

So why should there be a debate? Who ever said that Adam and Eve looked at all like we do now? Just because life as we know it evolved into the state in which we find it now doesn't mean that there was not an ultimate Creator at some point that we know as the Beginning.

Nice input etherealunicorn. You enrich this thread by your words.

Your view of science as a limited human endeavour is right; human history shows that. What science may find tomorrow can change our future view of nature. Our knowledge of facts will be, let us hope, richer.

The debate in this thread, as I personally view it, is not wheter a creating deity exists or not. Personally, it's not even wheter a deity created the universe or not, nor is it wheter that deity created life.
This debate, I think, is twofold: (1)Are the facts we know now about nature/life well explained by evolution and the theories of evolution; and (2)Is Creationism, especially the Creation "Science" advocated by ICR (www.icr.org), a scientifically valuable theory/scenario. (Please do acquaint yourself with ICR's extremelly literal reading of the bible).

I have tried in this thread to give hint has to why I believe the answer to (1) is yes, and to (2) is a resounding NO!

It will be for Entmooters, young and old, to form an opinion on these subjects, as they learn more on them as the months and years pass.

I do agree with you etherealunicorn that science and religion don't contradict each other necessarily: they touch us on different levels.
And yes, many scientists, believers in their own religion coming from their own cultures, do believe in the coexistance in their mind and heart of evolution and creation... but of course not that kind of strict literal creation that ICR and others read in their translation of their bible. Many christians do accept the metaphoric interpretation of the book of Genesis, without thinking they are misreading the word of their god. For them, evolution was their god's way of bringing life into its beautifull complexity (a complexity with beauties and imperfections that only evolution right now can explain scientifically).
I do not share these christians' belief in their god, but I respect them, for my disbelief in their deity doesn't come from science, since science has nothing to say in this matter.

So, etherealunicorn, I do hope you have the courage to read this thread, and that you will bring your point of vue, however different from mine or the others.

Ok Quickbeam. The name of the creationist that didn't buy even that Glen Rose footprint "evidence" is Berney Neufeld.

Anyways, a few search on the net also gave me these sources of information that try to answer the "footprints" issue:

The Paluxy Dinosaur/"Man Track" Controversy

This page contains links to the history and explanations of the GlenRose issue, from the point of vue of science.
(One of these interesting links is On the Heels of Dinosaurs: An Informal History of the Texas "Man Track" Controversy. On that page, it is indicated, under the paragraph titled Early Creationist Criticisms, that Neufeld was part of a team that criticised some creationists' assertion about the footprints)

I haven't read all of these, and that point of vue is still to be digested; so I'll do as everyone will do (I hope): to read those pages.

But another important link is from ICR itself:
The Paluxy River Mystery,
where ICR conclude that:
"Even though it would now be improper for creationists to continue to use the Paluxy data as evidence against evolution, in the light of these questions, there is still much that is not known about the tracks and continued research is in order" (emphasis mine).

So I guess for now that part may be put aside.

Finally, if anyone wants to see how large the debate can be, you can go to:

The Talk.Origins Archive,

which is an archive of the postings made in the talk.origins newsgroup; if you think this thread is long... then you've seen nothin' yet!

"'Once you see the extent of them... you may think again'

Meaning... that since I'm not agreeing with you, I haven't seen enough of them.
I don't think this needs any more comments..."

Oh, but it does.

"As far as the things I've said, I do hope that I've left you with enough of an inkling as to what I meant that you can interpolate the rest... that's a bit doubtful, though."

"Now it's your turn to underestimate me!"

"Once you see the extent of them... you may think again."

"Meaning... that since I'm not agreeing with you, I haven't seen enough of them. I don't think this needs any more comments..."

I'll leave you to find your blatantly obvious error.

"Do you really think that the scientific checks and balances would be strong enough to prevent this from happening?"

Yes. Unless you want to propose the existence of a global conspiracy of most of the scientists......


"I think they quite frequently do [fudge the facts], whether it be through sheer incompetence (of which there is no end), through malice, or through misdirected altruism"

......and I do see now that you do.

You are free of course to think what you do.
However, thinking is one thing, proving it another.
But I guess some tactics do need the absence of proofs..."

The key word in there was conspiracy.

"con·spir·a·cy (kn-spîr-s)
n., pl. con·spir·a·cies.

1.An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
2.A group of conspirators.
3.Law. An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.
4.A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design: a conspiracy of wind and tide that devastated coastal areas."

The word ALWAYS suggests a GROUP. TWO OR MORE PERSONS.

Why does incompetence require a group? Or malice? Or misdirected altruism?

Thanks for the links, Juntel. Glad to know the full story on the matter.
Guess it just proves that Creationists are fallible too, which I never denied.
My bad for not knowing about it already.

Johnny Lurker:

"I'll leave you to find your blatantly obvious error"

...which I guess is that I'm not agreeing with you.

This is getting boring...


Quickbeam:

"My bad for not knowing about it already."

...and there's plenty of thing I myself don't know about either sides, or about other sides.
We just can't all encompass all that has been done and learned about the subject.

Juntel:
"So is evolution an absolute fact, that cannot be false whatsoever? No. And science doesn't say that in any way."
No, science doesn't. The consepts of science are a wonderfull way to bring understanding of the mysteries of God's universe to us. Unfortunately, many leading scientists treat evolution as an absolute fact around which all things should be tested and understood.

Your view of Dogma is extremely one-sided and un-educated. Please get a deaper meaning of what your talking about before you accuse Dogma of being something so closed off to, well, anything.

You say this thread is about whether evolution is true and whether creation science is science. Well then, you aren't even open to a debate! We must first accept that evolution is science and so is creation science if we are to have a trully open debate. You refused to do that all along, so obviously this is a one sided debate for you.

etherealunicorn:
Very nice post. I'm sorry I have to dissagree with you, as I believe in a literal translation of the Bible (some may even consider it more literal then the views of ICR!) Man and women were created seperately from animals, so could not have evolved from the ape. Yes, there was of course change within the human race, I as well as many other Christians believe that man de-evolved somewhat from a higher state after the Fall, but not a connection between races. There is no evidence of evolution in the broadest term, which is why it disgusts me that scientists talk about it as though it's fact when they can't even show any evidence of it!

Tater:

This thread began by an attempt to say that evolution didn't really explain what we observed in nature (QB's first post of the thread). I then engaged in trying to counter-argue that.
So one of this thread's goal is to see wheter evolution does explain what is observed in nature. Right?

Then, you and QB tried to say that Creation "Science" (which basically comes from ICR) can explain those observations scientifically. That also I have tried to counter-argument. So wheter C"S" is a science is also one of the important subjects that has been treated in this thread, as anyone can read. Right?

That I don't accept C"S" as science is obvious from my posts. That doesn't mean I'm closed; it does mean though that I won't accept to be told that something is when it is not.

BTW, I haven't met or read any "leading scientists" (sic) that treated evolution as an absolute independant of any future or present findings, independant of what nature can tell us about itself.
I haven't read every single article though, so please, if you have any link or example of what you are saying, then do share with us those examples so that we can see by ourselves.

Juntel, this is ammusing. Watch just about any special on evolution, or science for that matter, on PBS and you'll see scientists who are leaders in their fields giving interviews where they treat evolution as fact.

Please reread this and this

Please, juntel, think before you post or respond.

"As far as the things I've said, I do hope that I've left you with enough of an inkling as to what I meant that you can interpolate the rest... that's a bit doubtful, though."

"Now it's your turn to underestimate me!"

"Once you see the extent of them... you may think again."

"Meaning... that since I'm not agreeing with you, I haven't seen enough of them. I don't think this needs any morecomments..."

"I'll leave you to find your blatantly obvious error."

"...which I guess is that I'm not agreeing with you."

No, no, NO!

Your error was in this statement.

"Meaning... that since I'm not agreeing with you"

You completely ignored the thread of conversation to that point.

I was saying, quite simply, that I didn't have the energy to explain my arguments beyond a rough outline, and that I doubted that you'd be able to properly figure out the details of my arguments.

It had nothing to do with you agreeing. It had everything to do with the fact that you don't know very much about me, the way I think, and that you can't read my mind.

"This is getting boring..."

Indeed.

J.Lurker:

Ok, you're right about that subthread.

You had said originally: "Nothing sucks more than running out of energy in the middle of a debate. It's not your fault... it's just... maybe there's some point right at the edge of my mind, and trying to process it is sapping my attention span... or maybe I just can't stick to one thread for a prolonged period of time without a whiff of some sort of victory (I have actually won battles on religious subjects... very, very minor ones, but still...).
If I get the energy back, I'll put it into the Quebec forum first, and this second.
As far as the things I've said, I do hope that I've left you with enough of an inkling as to what I meant that you can interpolate the rest... that's a bit doubtful, though."

So at this point you do mean that I can't interpolate the rest of your mind's thinking, and so you doubt.

"Nothing sucks more than running out of energy"...
Yeah, you can be right about that.

I won't answer in this thread for the next two days.
I'm imposing on myself some sleep away from the net!

I apologize JL for my mistake about the subthread.

Apology accepted, and thank you.

I've been finding more ways to waste my time, so I might not hit this board as often.

Creation

Creation

************************


In the beginning there was the computer. And God said


:Let there be light!


#Enter user id.


:God


#Enter password.


mniscient


#Password incorrect. Try again.


mnipotent


#Password incorrect. Try again.


:Technocrat


#And God logged on at 12:01:00 AM, Sunday, March 1.


:Let there be light!


#Unrecognizable command. Try again.


:Create light


#Done


:Run heaven and earth


#And God created Day and Night. And God saw there were 0 errors.

#And God logged off at 12:02:00 AM, Sunday, March 1.

#Approx. funds remaining: $92.50.


#And God logged on at 12:01:00 AM, Monday, March 2.


:Let there be firmament in the midst of water and light


#Unrecognizable command. Try again.


:Create firmament


#Done.


:Run firmament


#And God made the earth. And God saw there were 0 errors.

#And God logged off at 12:02:00 AM, Monday, March 2.

#Approx. funds remaining: $84.60.


#And God logged on at 12:01:00 AM, Tuesday, March 3.


:Let the waters under heaven be gathered together unto one place and let

the dry land appear and


#Too many characters in specification string. Try again.


:Create dry_land


#Done.


:Run firmament


#And God divided the waters. And God saw there were 0 errors.

#And God logged off at 12:02:00 AM, Tuesday, March 3.

#Approx. funds remaining: $65.00.


#And God logged on at 12:01:00 AM, Wednesday, March 4.


:Create lights in the firmament to divide the day from the night


#Unspecified type. Try again.


:Create sun_moon_stars


#Done


:Run sun_moon_stars


#And God saw the day and the night. And God saw there were 0 errors.

#And God logged off at 12:02:00 AM, Wednesday, March 4.

#Approx. funds remaining: $54.00.


#And God logged on at 12:01:00 AM, Thursday, March 5.


:Create fish


#Done


:Create fowl


#Done


:Run fish, fowl


#And God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that

creepeth wherewith the waters swarmed after its kind and every winged

fowl after its kind. And God saw there were 0 errors.


#And God logged off at 12:02:00 AM, Thursday, March 5.

#Approx. funds remaining: $45.00.


#And God logged on at 12:01:00 AM, Friday, March 6.


:Create cattle


#Done


:Create creepy_things


#Done


:Now let us make man in our image


#Unspecified type. Try again.


:Create man


#Done


:Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it and have

dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air and over

every living thing that creepeth upon the earth


#Too many command operands. Try again.


:Run multiplication


#Execution terminated. 6 errors.


:Insert breath


#Done


:Run multiplication


#Execution terminated. 5 errors.


:Move man to Garden of Eden


#File Garden of Eden does not exist.


:Create Garden.edn


#Done


:Move man to Garden.edn


#Done


:Run multiplication


#Execution terminated. 4 errors.


:Copy woman from man


#Done


:Run multiplication


#Execution terminated. 3 errors.


:Insert woman into man


#Illegal parameters. Try again.


:Insert man into woman


#Done


:Run multiplication


#Execution terminated. 2 errors.


:Create desire


#Done


:Run multiplication


#And God saw man and woman being fruitful and multiplying in Garden.edn


#Warning: No time limit on this run. 1 errors.


:Create freewill


#Done


:Run freewill


#And God saw man and woman being fruitful and multiplying in Garden.edn


#Warning: No time limit on this run. 1 errors.


:Undo desire


#Desire cannot be undone once freewill is created.


estroy freewill


#Freewill is an inaccessible file and cannot be destroyed.

#Enter replacement, cancel, or ask for help.


:Help


#Desire cannot be undone once freewill is created.

#Freewill is an inaccessible file and cannot be destroyed.

#Enter replacement, cancel, or ask for help.


:Create tree_of_knowledge


#And God saw man and woman being fruitful and multiplying in Garden.edn


#Warning: No time limit on this run. 1 errors.


:Create good, evil


#Done


:Activate evil


#And God saw he had created shame.

#Warning system error in sector E95. Man and woman not in Garden.edn.

1 errors.


:Scan Garden.edn for man, woman


#Search failed.


elete shame


#Shame cannot be deleted once evil has been activated.


estroy freewill


#Freewill is an inaccessible file and cannot be destroyed.

#Enter replacement, cancel, or ask for help.


:Stop


#Unrecognizable command. Try again


:Break

:Break

:Break


#ATTENTION ALL USERS *** ATTENTION ALL USERS: COMPUTER GOING DOWN FOR REGULAR DAY OF MAINTENANCE AND REST IN FIVE MINUTES. PLEASE LOG OFF.


:Create new world


#You have exceeded your allocated file space. You must destroy old files before new ones can be created.


estroy earth


#Destroy earth: Please confirm.


estroy earth confirmed


#COMPUTER DOWN *** COMPUTER DOWN. SERVICES WILL RESUME SUNDAY, MARCH 6 AT 6:00 AM. YOU MUST SIGN OFF NOW.


#And God logged off at 11:59:59 PM, Saturday, March 5.

#Approx. funds remaining: $0.00.

:lol: :rollin: g ROTFLMAO!!! :lol: :rollin:

That was brilliant! Where'd you get that???