Opinions: Fëanor, ritcheous or over-proud?

[Attalus]

*Shrugs* "Oft evil will/Shall evil mar." That does not make the evil any less so, and that is why Manwe trusted in Iluvatar's plan, to make good out of evil. Perhaps good came out of the Kinslaying, but you cannot tell me (so that I believe it, anyhow), that Feanor's transport to Middle earth, along with his partners-in-crime, could not been done without harm to the Telerii. He did evil, and I believe that, though not originally so, became blackest evil. We have JRRT's saying that Sauron was not originally so. Let the bodies of the Telerii attest to the goodness of Feanor's heart, along with Celebrimbor's body borne on a pole, of Sauron's good will.

[Maedhros]

*Shrugs* "Oft evil will/Shall evil mar." That does not make the evil any less so, and that is why Manwe trusted in Iluvatar's plan, to make good out of evil. Perhaps good came out of the Kinslaying, but you cannot tell me (so that I believe it, anyhow), that Feanor's transport to Middle earth, along with his partners-in-crime, could not been done without harm to the Telerii. He did evil, and I believe that, though not originally so, became blackest evil. We have JRRT's saying that Sauron was not originally so. Let the bodies of the Telerii attest to the goodness of Feanor's heart, along with Celebrimbor's body borne on a pole, of Sauron's good will.

Hehe. I notice that you stopped arguing the case of Artanis.
I look at it in the bigger picture. The death of an elf is the death of an elf. Was the killing of elves by Fëanor evil? Yes. Was the killing of elves by Morgoth evil? Yes.
If the Ñoldor weren't sundered from the Valar when they reached ME, Morgoth wouldn't have had time to disperse his power as he did, therefore in an alternate War of Wrath, Morgoth would have been more powerful himself and such a battle would have destroyed more of Middle-earth than the original did, causing more deaths, and that includes Teleri too.

[Rían]

But here you're getting into the question of whether an evil action (killing the Teleri) is made ok if that causes less 'evil' down the road (your assumption of "Morgoth wouldn't have had time to disperse his power as he did, therefore in an alternate War of Wrath, Morgoth would have been more powerful himself and such a battle would have destroyed more of Middle-earth than the original did, causing more deaths, and that includes Teleri too.")

First of all, that IS only an assumption - how do we know that? We can't. Here's another assumption - if the Ñoldor and the Valar had healed the breach that was between them, then together they would have become so powerful that they would have totally whomped Morgoth, causing even less loss of life.

I don't think an evil action can become 'good' if the results of that evil action are judged to be good (i.e., less dead elves). An evil action is evil, no matter what.

Yes, the killing of elves is evil - but there are worse things than death, IMO - such as the marring of a heart by evil choices. The elves that died doing right seem to spend very little time with Mandos before they are released.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Really? So Namo is like the keeper of Purgatory?

[Attalus]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
.

I don't think an evil action can become 'good' if the results of that evil action are judged to be good (i.e., less dead elves). An evil action is evil, no matter what.

Yes, the killing of elves is evil - but there are worse things than death, IMO - such as the marring of a heart by evil choices. The elves that died doing right seem to spend very little time with Mandos before they are released.

Hear, hear. The Valar deplored the marring of Feanor as the worst of Morgoth's deeds, because of all the good he could have done, and also because of the evil that he certainly did do.

[Maedhros]

if the Ñoldor and the Valar had healed the breach that was between them, then together they would have become so powerful that they would have totally whomped Morgoth, causing even less loss of life.

Hehe. An erroneous assumption of course.
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction.

You are right that the Ñoldor and Valar would have been a greater force but such an outcome would have had far worse consequences in Arda that the Original War of Wrath did.
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision. The intervention came before the annihilation of the Eldar and the Edain. Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind. He had become absorbed in 'kingship', and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism. He had fallen to like being a tyrant-king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.

I don't think an evil action can become 'good' if the results of that evil action are judged to be good (i.e., less dead elves). An evil action is evil, no matter what.

Yes. The hate that Galadriel had for Fëanor was bad too.

Originally posted by Attalus
and that the text does not support your statements.

I really like the way that you continually change the subject of the Topic. We were discussing Galadriel and then drop that and shifted to Fëanor.
Where is it that my text does not support my statements?

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I'm saying that because of the fact that Galadriel didn't give to Fëanor a piece of her hair, prevented the creation of something great by Fëanor.

That is not supported by the text. You ignore the obvious fact that Galadriel hated Feanor for the evil she sensed in him, and caused him to commit the Kinslaying, which all your special pleading cannot get around.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Attalus
That is not supported by the text. You ignore the obvious fact that Galadriel hated Feanor for the evil she sensed in him, and caused him to commit the Kinslaying, which all your special peading cannot get around.

Not to mention abandoning the other Noldor on the shore and the burning of the ships.

[Sister Golden Hair]

From what UT says, the only reason that he wanted a lock of her hair was because it reminded him of the light of the Trees. This was what gave him the idea for the Silmarils. What else could he have possibly created involving her giving him a lock of hair?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
From what UT says, the only reason that he wanted a lock of her hair was because it reminded him of the light of the Trees. This was what gave him the idea for the Silmarils. What else could he have possibly created involving her giving him a lock of hair?

'Creepy uncle' reasons, me thinks.

[Maedhros]

You ignore the obvious fact that Galadriel hated Feanor for the evil she sensed in him, and caused him to commit the Kinslaying, which all your special pleading cannot get around.

And caused him to commit the Kinslaying? The evil in Fëanor? So no pity for the devil then. Did Galadriel know that Fëanor would commit such act as the Kinslaying?
Newsflash, that isn't in the books. To use the Kinslaying as an excuse is not logical.
It's funny how you shift your arguments from Galadriel then Fëanor then back to Galadriel.
Of course Fëanor didn't do a great work with the hair of Galadriel because he was denied that. I thought that was obvious, well not to you it seems.
You seem to ignore that no good ever came out of her denying her hair. That hate and fear were not overcome by her, in fact you agree with the fact that her denial was a good thing. Such a Melkorian attitude.
Fight hate with hate is what Morgoth does not Manwë, and that is in the books with no speacial pleading that goes around.

What else could he have possibly created involving her giving him a lock of hair?

I guess we will never know, would we?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Maedhros
So no pity for the devil then.

That's right.

Originally posted by Meadhros
That hate and fear were not overcome by her, in fact you agree with the fact that her denial was a good thing.

It is wise to have a healthy fear of your enemy. And it seems that Feanor liked to make enemies, even his half-brothers... who forgave him of his wrongs against them. And Galadriel did not 'hate' Feanor. Like you said, it isn't in the books, only that they were 'unfriends' forever. That is not hate.

Originally posted by Maedhros
Such a Melkorian attitude.

Anyone who has an opinion that is against Feanor is 'Melkorian' to you. What kind of argument is that? Quit whining.

[Sister Golden Hair]

From Unfinished Tales.

Galadriel was born in the bliss of Valinor, but it was not long, in the reckoning of the Blessed Realm, before that was dimmed; and thereafter she had no peace within. For in that testing time amid the strife of the Noldor she was drawn this way and that. She was proud, strong, and selfwilled, as were all the descendants of Finwe save Finarfin, and like her brother Finrod, of all her kin the nearest to her heart, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage. Yet deeper still there dwelt in her the noble and generous spirit of the Vanyar, and a reverence for the Valar that she could not forget. From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding, and she withheld her goodwill from none save only Feanor. In him she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, though she did not perceive that the shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor, and upon her own.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel


Anyone who has an opinion that is against Feanor is 'Melkorian' to you. What kind of argument is that? Quit whining.

Let's keep things civil folks.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Maedhros
And caused him to commit the Kinslaying? The evil in Fëanor? So no pity for the devil then. Did Galadriel know that Fëanor would commit such act as the Kinslaying?
Newsflash, that isn't in the books. To use the Kinslaying as an excuse is not logical.
It's funny how you shift your arguments from Galadriel then Fëanor then back to Galadriel.
Of course Fëanor didn't do a great work with the hair of Galadriel because he was denied that. I thought that was obvious, well not to you it seems.
You seem to ignore that no good ever came out of her denying her hair. That hate and fear were not overcome by her, in fact you agree with the fact that her denial was a good thing. Such a Melkorian attitude.
Fight hate with hate is what Morgoth does not Manwë, and that is in the books with no speacial pleading that goes around.

I guess we will never know, would we?

No, Maedrhos, the evil in Feanor caused him to commit the Kinslaying. I really do not think any stretch can lay that at Galadriel's door. Galadriel did not know what evil act Feanor would commit, only that his evil was so great that some hideous thing would come of it. I am glad that Galadriel denied him her tress. Who knows what monstrous evil he could have hatched? And, hate is not in itself an evil. I can hate Hitler, and by literary extension, Morgoth and Sauron, and I absolve myself, because such evil deserves hate. So, I hate Feanor, because his evil is only a little less.

[Rían]

And I"ll add my view as a woman on the hair thing - I would certainly not give anything so personal as a lock of hair to someone that I did not care for, and I don't think it is wrong of me in any way whatsoever to think that way.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Really? So Namo is like the keeper of Purgatory?

(I PMed GW, and the part he was wondering about was the length of time staying with Mandos being related to how good/bad the person was. Does anyone recall the reference? I seem to remember it being in HoME 10, MR, and so does SGH, but can't find it right off the bat)

[Rían]

ah-HA! I happened to flip right to it! (doncha love when that happens! )

From HoME 10, Morgoth's Ring, The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II), Laws and Customs among the Eldar, "Of Re-birth and other dooms of those that go to Mandos":

For there was, for all the feär of the Dead, a time of Waiting, in which, howsoever they had died, they were corrected, instructed, strengthened, or comforted, according to their needs or deserts. If they would consent to this. But the feä in its nakedness is obdurate, and remains long in the bondage of its memory and old purposes (especially if these were evil).

(Italics are Tolkien's own)

(For those who don't have HoME books, "feä" roughly corresponds to a persons' spirit or soul; "feär" is plural)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Thanks much, Rian.

[Rían]

You're welcome!

There's various other references scattered around, but that was one of the better ones.