Gollum Debate

[Wayfarer]

And willingly would I dispense
With false accouterments of sense,
To sleep immodestly, a most
Incarnadine and carnal ghost.

Psycho Kitty, you obviously don't want to understand what anybody else is saying.

Nobody here dislikes gollum. Nobody here begrudges your admiration of him, or wants you to look down on him. The only dissagreement there is is with the reasons you have stated. Had you simply said "I want to be like gollum" there would be no controversy here today.

You have repeatedly made claims that it is impossible to support with the text. You have acted as though gollum was somehow content, at peace, even happy. He was not. You have made reference to seeing gollum as a 'pure animal'. He was not. He was a corrupt animal, and more than that he was a self-aware animal. Even his natural instincts had been twisted by the ring, robbing him of whatever simplicity his life might have had.

I can, to some degree, understand what you're getting at. When gollum and smeagol discuss what they would do with the ring, they decide that they will go to the sea and eat their fill of fish. Truly a simple thing, but it is smeagol, the good portion of his being, that desires it. Gollum desires only the ring.

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
And willingly would I dispense
With false accouterments of sense,
To sleep immodestly, a most
Incarnadine and carnal ghost.

yesh i hate my epidermal dress too....

and the rags of my anatomy.

and as for gollum ok if you want to call him "the corrupted animal" then thats fine. that can work. i really think your definition of corrupted animal and my definition of pure animal are the same. so we are just really arguing over words now. but my concept remains. obviously it was the ring that made him the creature he is but thats just fine. give me the ring then and let me follow into the footsteps of his isolation and the twisting of his psyche and ill be a happy little girl. oh sorry! i wont be happy because you say i wont be happy. so i guess ill be happy in my unhappyness. hows that.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
Youre not gonna get me to think oh gollum ISNT appealing gee I guess your right. How dumb of me to be so open minded and have my own interpretation on this. Whats wrong with me. Follow the crowd and shut up psycho kitty.

You're right, I'm so sorry for actually respecting the author and his vision, rather than trying to turn it into something it is not.

The above was not meant to be serious, but a demonstration that the sword swings both ways.

I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum [meaning gollum/smeagol] would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both.

And how do you know he meant Smeagol/Gollum? To me, the way he refers to them collectively as Gollum, despite the fact that Tolkien was quite a perfectionist states that the two are in fact inseparable. Two sides of the same coin, in a way; you cannot have one without the other.

i really think your definition of corrupted animal and my definition of pure animal are the same.

I doubt it. I believe that corrupted animal does not refer to "pure animal instinct" as you call it, but the direct result of direct corruption of a tremendously (perhaps even purely) evil Object. Gollum was a creature of Evil, not of Instinct. Would an animal which had it's bone stolen from it plot about how it would make that which the bone pay, after it had gotten it's bone back? Would it scheme and relish the thought of destroying one which it did not like? No. Animals act out of instinct, which does not include the above actions, but of which the Gollum aspect did do.

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
You know I really think you should have included the few sentences before that quote rather then snipping them off.

I would have posted the other sentances, but I don't own the Letters; I was just posting what I had scribbled down in a notebook.
I think the quote boils down to whether Gollum and Smeagol are separable, and I think Gollum and Smeagol are inseparable. (See azalea's post above.)
And, Psycho Kitty, it doesn't bother me if you like Gollum, he is certainly an interesting character. You are free to have your own opinions. Nobody's disputing that.

[Psycho Kitty]

And how do you know he meant Smeagol/Gollum? To me, the way he refers to them collectively as Gollum, despite the fact that Tolkien was quite a perfectionist states that the two are in fact inseparable. Two sides of the same coin, in a way; you cannot have one without the other.

No doubt. but im just talking about one side of the coin k.

Gollum was a creature of Evil, not of Instinct.

If gollum was simply evil like the other evil creatures in the books then why did he seek out no interaction with any other living creature? why seek out total isolation? how does that further your evil designes? why wasnt he more like any of the other evil creatures? why did he fear EVERY other evil creature so much if he was just about being evil? Its because he WASNT just a simple evil character in the books. he was corrupted by the evil ring yes but he was made into this animal whos only purpose in life was to survive away from everyone else and to have his ring which was basically his drug. many drug addicts show the exact same type of breakdown from hire thinking humans to basic animal one purpose focus of life. it doesnt mean they are suddenly evil. it just means their normal focus has been broken down because of their drug. they become more animal. just like gollum.

[burnerofladles]

I have several problems with physcokitty's arguments.

but he WANTED to be alone. and gollum allowed him to survive even under what we would call such horrible conditions. but he was fine with it. he would never have wanted to live like bilbo. to be stuck in a house. with pretty flowers around. eating horrible cooked food. dealing with other hobbits. he never could have delt with that. his ideal situation WAS far away in the darkness away from everyone. thats where he could truly relax. ... dont think just because he doesnt live like you that he isnt living the way he prefers. your projecting yourself on him and hes not you. its like saying a slug must be miserable because they are always slimy. well come on. the cave was gollums ideal environment. not the sunlight. not the outside world dealing with other people. and yes gollum allowed him to survive that kinda environment better then anyone else could have.

I think it might be useful to have a little retelling of Smeagollum's (That's what I call both of them) tale here:

Smeagol went fishing with Deagol.
Deagol found the ring.
Smeagol murdered Deagol because he wanted the ring.
Smeagollum continued to live amongst his family, using the ring to spy on them, until his grandmother cast him out because he was causing lots of trouble.
Smeagollum wandered for a while, until he found the mountains to get away from the sun and the moon - and because he thought he would find deep, great secrets in their roots.
Smeagollum gradually morphed into Gollum, with the occasional hint of Smeagol.
Bilbo gets the ring.
Gollum goes in seach of the ring.

He did not choose to leave. He was cast out by his grandmother, because he used his new powers of invisibility to spy on his family, and caused much trouble.
He went to the mountains to escaoe the sun and moon. He wanted the darkness. He thought the mountains would have secrets he could find out.
The ring destroyed him. It ate at him. There's a bit where it says that at first he could not bear to have it not with him, then that he could not bear to have it away but couldn't bear to have it touching him, and then he could not bear to have it with him, but he couldn't leave it alone.

Does this sound like a relaxed, content existance?

But I think the most telling bit is:
"He hated and loved it, as he hated and loved himself."
(something like that, don't have the exact quote.)

How can someone who hates themself have a contented existence.

Smeagol and Gollum do not exist independatly of each other, they are each other and always will be. You cannot have Gollum without Smeagol.

[Psycho Kitty]

so then is your argument that being alone in the caves was the worse situation for him? and that he should have lived like a silly little hobbit all happy and social? which situation do you think would have allowed him to relax more? he would have been tortured by the ring either way. i say he WAS more content in the caves and the darkness alone and far away from everyone then he ever could be in any other situation. i say without interference from the hobbit baggins he would have remained like that unless saurons little minions had finally caught up to the ring before a war had destroyed the evil forces on middle earth. you very well could have had a big war where no ring was involved and it was assumed lost by both sides. and gollum would have it all the time.

[azalea]

Well, you COULD live as an unsocial hobbit hermit, but that's beside the point, I know.
Your post got me thinking that maybe Gollum didn't seek out others or ever try to go back in part because way deep down he knew that by interacting he would end up killing again and didn't want that (the Smeagol part, if you wish). I don't know, it's just a thought. I tend to think of characters optimistically.

[Elfhelm]

Naw! As a puppet and slave to the Ring, he went underground because the Ring wanted him to, that's all.

[Sheeana]

I've mentioned this before, but I'll mention it again - Tolkien thought that Smeagol could be redeemed - which implies that Smeagol wasn't happy with being an outcast, and a loner.

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by azalea
Well, you COULD live as an unsocial hobbit hermit, but that's beside the point, I know.
Your post got me thinking that maybe Gollum didn't seek out others or ever try to go back in part because way deep down he knew that by interacting he would end up killing again and didn't want that (the Smeagol part, if you wish). I don't know, it's just a thought. I tend to think of characters optimistically.

ya ive noticed.

i dont think it was just about wanting to avoid killing. i mean he still killed goblins and would be more then happy to kill other things that happened to stumble into his den. maybe MAYBE there was some lingering subconcious thing going on there but i think the main motivation was just to get away from bothersome annoying people and be alone in a dark sanctuary where all he had to deal with was himself and this glorious and horrible ring. but it was all his. and thats all that mattered to him.

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Naw! As a puppet and slave to the Ring, he went underground because the Ring wanted him to, that's all.

no he went underground because that was the logical place to go. why do you think the ring would want him to go underground and away from the world? what would be the benefit to the ring? i always thought the ring wanted to be found so it could get back to its rightful master. volunteering to be hidden away for generations wouldnt help do this. why not leave gollum like it did with Isildur? why not just slide off his finger and roll away? why wait all that time THEN do it when bilbo showed up? i think this opens up much deeper questions about the whole duality of evil and fate that most people dont even think about but that makes the books even more interesting.

[Elfhelm]

It waited for Sauron to recover. It may even have called Bilbo, because it knew that Gollum wouldn't come out from the cave on his own. Still, I think it was the Ring that drove Gollum down there, and he obeyed like a whipped puppy.

[Eomer]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
This is carried over from the "Who are you in ME?" thread, where PsychoKitty seemed to think that Gollum lead a happy, contented life, and also that he was right to take the Ring from Déagol. This is where we can debate that! *maniacal laughter* Excuse me. I love debate.


But the Ring was not his. Déagol found it, it was for Déagol to decide what to do with it. All the laws of honesty support me.


I doubt it. Déagol was a primitive little Stoor, do you think he would even have the strength to turn it in to anyone else? He would almost certainly have kept it for himself, eventually becoming like Gollum, though probably not quite as twisted.


He might be if he had 'hidden it away' for good purposes. But we know the Ring had corrupted him at that point. He desired only to possess it and keep it safe. ('Safe' meaning belonging to him.)


So Gollum was right to murder his best friend?

How can you saw Gollum did best?
if he had let Deagol have it and give it to the "Elders". it would have been found by the forces of good even before Sauron started to mass his forces.

[Eomer]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
no he went underground because that was the logical place to go. why do you think the ring would want him to go underground and away from the world? what would be the benefit to the ring? i always thought the ring wanted to be found so it could get back to its rightful master. volunteering to be hidden away for generations wouldnt help do this. why not leave gollum like it did with Isildur? why not just slide off his finger and roll away? why wait all that time THEN do it when bilbo showed up? i think this opens up much deeper questions about the whole duality of evil and fate that most people dont even think about but that makes the books even more interesting.

the ring wanted him to go underground because then
it can wait for sauron to gather strength and mass forces.
Gollum did it because he did not like the sun or moon, he went underground to hide from his shameful life. it was both Gollum and the ring that wanted to go underground.