Opinions: Fëanor, ritcheous or over-proud?

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Maedhros
And with her own narrow mind, she didn't perceive that she was tainted too. The sad thing is that by refusing to give him a lock of her hair, she showed arrogance and petulance too.

Ah, but she and all the other Noldor were but touched by the shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor, and upon her own. Feanor had the full evil that Galadriel sensed.

Some definitions: (Merriam-Webster)
petulant-1 : insolent or rude in speech or behavior
2 : characterized by temporary or capricious ill humor : PEEVISH

arrogance- a feeling or an impression of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or presumptuous claims

I don't think that Galadriel was insolent or rude in refusing such a personal request from someone she disliked heartily, and doubt she was manifesting an overbearing manner or made presuptuous claims. On the other hand, such an obsession with his niece argues an unhealthy state of mind.

[Falagar]

Anyone thinks that Fëanor's acts may have been different if she had given him a tress? He probably bacame very bitter after her refusal...

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Falagar
Anyone thinks that Fëanor's acts may have been different if she had given him a tress? He probably bacame very bitter after her refusal...

LOL, the first time I skimmed your post, I read "dress" for "tress." That called up a really strange mental picture. Seriously, I don't think so. It was in his character to be self-willed and self-absorbed, and I doubt one "hank of hair" would have changed it much. Though, come to think of it, it really seemed to change Gimli...

[Maedhros]

but she didn't have a narrow mind. She saw more clearly than any into the minds of others, but she showed both mercy and understanding. And I don't think she was tainted, I'm not sure if Fëanor was tainted either.

I think she was narrow minded. She deliberately withheld a future great work of Fëanor. It's funny but they condemn Fëanor for not wanting to share the Silmarils and yet they don't care that because of Galadriel a great work was not even made.
From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor

For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwë might in some measure conceive.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
She deliberately withheld a future great work of Fëanor. It's funny but they condemn Fëanor for not wanting to share the Silmarils and yet they don't care that because of Galadriel a great work was not even made.

Uh? I don't understand you. The Valar mourned for Fëanor's abilities that was never utilized for the good and glory of Arda, but that was due to Melkor's corruption, and not a fault of Galadriel. Add one sentence to the quote you gave:

And they mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Fëanor: of the works of Melkor one of the most evil. For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwë might in some measure conceive.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
Uh? I don't understand you. The Valar mourned for Fëanor's abilities that was never utilized for the good and glory of Arda, but that was due to Melkor's corruption, and not a fault of Galadriel.

Go, Artanis, go!

Maedhros, now you are blaming what Feanor did or didn't do on Galadriel? I think she was right to withhold her hair from him. I think if my creepy uncle came up to me and asked for a lock of my hair, I'd tell him to shove off also. Yeah, you heard me... creepy... you got it right. Who else but a creep would have insighted and carried out the Kinslaying? (That is a rhetorical question, Maedhros.)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body

Eep. That puts images in the mind.

-goes to gouge out his eyes-

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Eep. That puts images in the mind.

-goes to gouge out his eyes-

*thinking* hmmmm... maybe I should check this Feanor out a little closer....hmmmm.... you know, just for research.
ACK!!! What am I saying!!!!!
*beats head against wall until bad thoughts are all gone*
bad...visions...*bang!* ...go... *bang!* ...away... *bang!* ...go ... *bang* ...away... *bang!* ...bad... *bang!* ...bad... *bang!* ...bad ... *bang!*...sheElf... *passes out in a heap on the floor*

[Maedhros]

The Valar mourned for Fëanor's abilities that was never utilized for the good and glory of Arda, but that was due to Melkor's corruption, and not a fault of Galadriel.

I'm saying that because of the fact that Galadriel didn't give to Fëanor a piece of her hair, prevented the creation of something great by Fëanor.

I think she was right to withhold her hair from him. I think if my creepy uncle came up to me and asked for a lock of my hair, I'd tell him to shove off also.

There is one reason that Manwë is the noblest of the Valar.
From Ósanwe kenta

How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwë and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Can hate overcome hate? Nay, Manwë was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom.

It's sad the attitude of Artains in her denial, it just demeans her.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I'm saying that because of the fact that Galadriel didn't give to Fëanor a piece of her hair, prevented the creation of something great by Fëanor.

How so? It says in UT that her hair is what first gave him the idea of creating the Silmarils. He still created them.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ruinel
*thinking* hmmmm... maybe I should check this Feanor out a little closer....hmmmm.... you know, just for research.
ACK!!! What am I saying!!!!!

Ehem - if you're in need for an assistant, I'll be happy to do the - ehem - 'dirty' work for you *cough*
Research - observation, experiments, measurements *cough*

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I'm saying that because of the fact that Galadriel didn't give to Fëanor a piece of her hair, prevented the creation of something great by Fëanor.

I'm still lost. I fail to see the connection between Artanis' denial and the supposed prevention of Fëanor's creations. Explain please?

It's sad the attitude of Artains in her denial, it just demeans her.

'Sad' I can agree with. 'Demeans her' no, it's too strong.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I'm saying that because of the fact that Galadriel didn't give to Fëanor a piece of her hair, prevented the creation of something great by Fëanor.


It's sad the attitude of Artains in her denial, it just demeans her.

Let me get this straight. Galadriel, even though she feels that her creepy uncle (good phrase) is evil, she is supposed to do anything that he asks, even if she didn't want to? Just on the basis of some hypothetical creation that Feanor, maker both of the Silmarils and the Kinslaying, might possibly have come up with? How does she know he doesn't just want to fondle them? I think that Artanis has been quite consistent, and that the text does not support your statements.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Artanis
Ehem - if you're in need for an assistant, I'll be happy to do the - ehem - 'dirty' work for you *cough*
Research - observation, experiments, measurements *cough*

*backs slowly out of this thread*

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
Ehem - if you're in need for an assistant, I'll be happy to do the - ehem - 'dirty' work for you *cough*
Research - observation, experiments, measurements *cough*

*hands Artanis lab assistant application* just a formality, dear, I need it for my records, you're hired. Help me set up the equipment... *notices Falagar*
Oh, wait, your first job is to...

Originally posted by 'meat of the day' Falagar
*backs slowly out of this thread*

...Grab him!!!!!!!!!

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ruinel
...Grab him!!!!!!!!!

Hey, wait a minute! Fëanor is the object of research, not Falagar!

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
Hey, wait a minute! Fëanor is the object of research, not Falagar!

Oh, yes, you're right... sorry, I got caught up in the moment. Thanks for correcting me.

*unties Falagar and gives him back his clothes*

Sorry, hope you'll forgive me Falagar. No harm, no foul... right? hehehe

[Maedhros]

Galadriel, even though she feels that her creepy uncle (good phrase) is evil, she is supposed to do anything that he asks, even if she didn't want to?

Can hate overcome hate? Nay, Manwë was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom.

So Artanis should just hate him because he fears him. There was this thing called kindness and being the better person. Was some of her hair that hard to give away?

Just on the basis of some hypothetical creation that Feanor, maker both of the Silmarils and the Kinslaying, might possibly have come up with?

At that time, there was no Kinslaying. That Fëanor was pretty inventive.
From the Published Silmarillion

He became of all the Noldor, then or after, the most subtle in mind and the most skilled in hand. In his youth, bettering the work of Rúmil, he devised those letters which bear his name, and which the Eldar used ever after; and he it was who, first of the Noldor, discovered how gems greater and brighter than those of the earth might be made with skill. The first gems that Fëanor made were white and colourless, but being set under starlight they would blaze with blue and silver fires brighter than Helluin; and other crystals he made also, wherein things far away could be seen small but clear, as with the eyes of the eagles of Manwë. Seldom were the hands and mind of Fëanor at rest.

How does she know he doesn't just want to fondle them?

Sad really that someone would think such a thing.

I think that Artanis has been quite consistent, and that the text does not support your statements.

My statements that Artanis not giving the a little part of her hair to Fëanor is wrong. That hate should be met by hate.
That Fëanor could have created something unique with them.
In the Published Silmarillion that I read, Manwë which is the noblest of the Valar gave Melkor another chance, he met his past transgressions with a new chance of redemption. He had hope and mercy instead of hate and fear.
It was only Manwë the one who could see what things Fëanor could have done, because they would have been great.
From the Published Silmarillion

The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwë might in some measure conceive.

I don't know which books you have read but the ones I have do support my statements.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Maedhros

At that time, there was no Kinslaying. That Fëanor was pretty inventive.

That is correct, but the two different things sprang from the same brain: Feanor's. Galadriel was right to mistrust him.

Sad really that someone would think such a thing.

[COLOR-orangered]Yes, but such things do happen. I repeat, Galadriel was well within her rights to refuse such a personal gift to anyone, especially one that she felt to be touched with some evil. Many strange stories are told of the power that the gift of a lock of one's hair to someone not of good intent.[/COLOR]

My statements that Artanis not giving the a little part of her hair to Fëanor is wrong. That hate should be met by hate.
That Fëanor could have created something unique with them.
In the Published Silmarillion that I read, Manwë which is the noblest of the Ainur gave Melkor another chance, he met his past transgressions with a new chance of redemption. He had hope and mercy instead of hate and fear.
It was only Manwë the one who could see what things Fëanor could have done, because they would have been great.
From the Published Silmarillion

I don't know which books you have read but the ones I have do support my statements.

[COLOR=orangered]Support what statements? That Feanor was a great craftsman? Of couse he was. That forgiveness is a fine thing, and that the quality of mercy is not strained? Of course it is. But, you will have to admit, Manwe's forgiveness didn't turn out all that well, and there is no guarantee that it would not have been so with Galadriel's. I feel she was right to mistrust him.

[Maedhros]

Galadriel was right to mistrust him.

Fight fire with fire, is that it then. Not a noble thing to do. But if that is the way you think then, Fëanor going after Morgoth isn't a bad thing, after all he was fighting hate with hate too.

I repeat, Galadriel was well within her rights to refuse such a personal gift to anyone, especially one that she felt to be touched with some evil. Many strange stories are told of the power that the gift of a lock of one's hair to someone not of good intent.[/

She had the right of course, but was it a good thing to do. No. Would a better person have done that? No. Could Fëanor have created a great work with them? Yes. What was achieved by Artanis mistrust? Nothing.

But, you will have to admit, Manwe's forgiveness didn't turn out all that well, and there is no guarantee that it would not have been so with Galadriel's. I feel she was right to mistrust him.

Is that according to who? Not JRRT of course.
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

But, if we dare to attempt to enter the mind of the Elder King, assigning motives and finding faults, there are things to remember before we deliver a judgement. Manwë was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda. He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.
The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision. The intervention came before the annihilation of the Eldar and the Edain. Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind. He had become absorbed in 'kingship', and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism. He had fallen to like being a tyrant-king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.
The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand.