The worst change in FOTR

[kennebecc]

>>the relationship between Samwise and Frodo, that does come out differently; not so much a master/servant relationship, as it is at first, but developing more into a personal friendship as the film develops. I feel this is more readily accepted by today's audiences, who may have been put off by an exact depiction of their relationship as stated in the books<<

Yes, I agree. And, wondering a little how this change of them being more 'friends' than master/servant (not subservient, by any means) will affect the next two movies. I'm thinking in particular of Sam finding a stripped Frodo in the tower, and how that will play out to today's audience. I've already heard some mutterings about their 'relationship'. Just hope its not a distraction.


>>Tolkiens own comments regarding LOTR<<

The copy of FOTR that I have includes an Introduction/Foreword by the author:
"The Lord of the Rings has been read by many people since it finally appeared in print ten years ago; and I should like to say something here with reference to the many opinions or guesses that I have received or have read concerning the motives and meanings of the tale. The prime motive was the desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of readers, amuse them, delight them, and at times maybe excite them or deeply move them. As a guide I had only my own feelings for what is appealing or moving, and for many the guide was inevitably often at fault. Some who have read the book, or at any rate have reviewed it, have found it boring, absurb, or contemptible; and I have no cause to complain, since I have similar opinions of their works, or of the kinds of writing that they evidently prefer. But, even from the points of view of many who have enjoyed my story there is much that fails to please. It is perhaps not possible in a long tale to please everybody at all points, or to displease everybody at the same points; for I find from the letters that I have received that the passages or chapters that to some a blemish are all by others specially approved. The most critical reader of all, myself, now finds many defects, minor and major, but being fortunately under no obligation either to review the book, or to write it again, he will pass over these in silence, except one that has been noted by others: the book is too short."

Thus, what goes around, comes around.

[noldo]

Billadillo:

- Arwen "weakened" Aragorn's character only by the fact that she was a supreme being, an immortal, an elf. Remember when the Fellowship entered Lórien? Suddenly they're surrounded by an army of Elves. For no human, not even Aragorn raised by Elves could match them in the skills of hiding, sneaking... etc.

- Arwen "weakened" Elrond's character only by the fact that she called out to him to flood the Ford. Elves couldn't do magic just like that, but they could communicate without speech and from far distances (take Galadriel of the films as another example). And Arwen called out to Elrond and it was Elrond who governed the ring of Vilya and made the flood at Bruinen.

Billadillo, have you read the Silmarillion, BTW?

[Arwenfan]

1st note:
In keeping with Gloer's anally retentive personality, I'd like to note that there shouldn't be an apostrophe where he put it in scene's [sic].

2:
Women aren't idiotic girlies afraid of their own shadows and most men are tough enough to deal with this and still look and feel like real men.

3:
Arwen is a great character in the film and Frodo's resistance to the power of the ring is proven at various points in the film, without another scene to hammer it home.

4:
When one work of art e.g. a book is made into another work of art, it has to change substantially or it would in effect, die as an artistic endeavour, as it would completely lose any spirit or integrity, by merely being a pathetic copy of something superior. If the film is produced as a work of art in it's own right, it will (hopefully) be an amazing and beautiful work, as has happened with LotR.

5: Judging a film on the trailer is like judging a book on the blurb, which as we all know, can be very misleading.

I'm sorry if this comes over as being insufficiently polite, but Gloer's comment on women, was very insulting.

[bropous]

Come one, now, Arwenfan, you don't have to disagree by being disagreeable. You have no idea, really, whether Gloer is anally retentive. Attack the ideas, if you must, but not the individual. That keeps things here on a friendly basis. Just my humble Entingish opinion. Plus, an inappropriately placed apostrophe here or there does not destroy a person's logic.

I wouldn't touch the whole man v. woman argument with a twenty foot pole!

Correct in not judging a film by its trailer.

I was disappointed that Glorfindel was supplanted by Arwen, but in my humble opinion, the lady did a good job. I found her sneaking up on Aragorn to be a reflection of his being so concerned in finding athelas, being so concerned with Frodo's condition, and the fact that Elves are very quiet in the wild.

Somewhere else someone was taking issue with Arwen chanting an incantation. Can someone show me somewhere that proves that Elrond had not chanted an incantation to raise the waters at the Ford of Bruinen?

Some had taken issue that Arwen would cry over Frodo. I feel she had come to know dear old Bilbo in Rivendell and knew how much he loved Frodo, and this tore her heart out. Perfectly believable to me.

I saw Arwen as weakening neither Aragorn nor Elrond.

[orald]

The books have been translated into a more "modern" version of the story, like a storyteller at the fireside weaving words in memory of a distant era, a retelling of an epic as the shadows and firelight dance upon darkend walls.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


I greatly disagree,the books doesn't need to be modernized,I think thats absurd.There perfect,and putting them in cinematic form,does force the director to alter timelines,and characters.but making Arwen the heir to most of these changes,I believe is risky,when all is said ,and done.Im gonna go out on a limb,on this and say,that this will make Liv Tyler a star,and P.Jackson knows this,she is very beautiful,and seems to be down to Earth.Some directors,take a young female they take a strong liking to,and give them that big break,and the actress is forever grateful to that director.Just seems to me,he took a large risk,as far as being chastized by the Tolkien loyalists,not because there anti-feminine,but for all that she replaced.Why did she have to be riding with Frodo?oh yes,she had to do that chant thingy,wouldn't it have been better if Frodo tried to hold them off,and the river flooded out of nowhere,like in the book,and we learn later,at Frodo's bedside that Elrond,and Gandalf,were responsible?Oh yes,we would be cutting out Arwen,and we should see her as often as possible.With this new heroism,and more to the front love story,why didn't she go with her man,instead of pacing around,waiting?As was asked in a previous post.

[Kevin McIntyre]

I have seen the movie four times now and must say my review is all positive ( as if my opinion really means anything to anyone else really - judge for yourself is my motto ).
There were many deviations from the book, and need not be reviewed in detail here. However I would like to address the great Arwen debate. First off what is the great loyalty to the Glorindel character, he makes a brief appearance, does not really distinguish himself from any of the other Eldar, and yet he has become this mythic character, and for some reason people imply that the story is weakened with his deletion. Personally I liked Gildors precense in the shire much better, but understand why that was deleted. The way Arwen character was portrayed (in terms of the rescue of Frodo) matches up pretty well with the deeds of Glorifindal (In the movie arwen does more actually, in the book Frodo depends more on the speed of Asfaloth than anything else). For the casual toklien reader and those who haven't cracked the book, the movie does leave the viewer with the impression that Arwen alone caused the flood, but I understand the difficulty in portraying this detail in the movie.

Anyone who sees Arwen as a retiring elf princess will always be offended by PJ's interpretation. However elf woman were not retiring waifs. Galadriel was one of Tolkien favorite characters and her power evolved over time to the point where she was perhaps the equal of Feanor. Aredhel seems to have been quite an adventurous elfs as well. And of course Luthien is one of the great tolkien herioc characters.


There were some deviations that I didn't understand - one being the sense that everyone knows of Aragorns legacy. At least Boromir (sean bean) seems to have at least heard of him. I thought this was a little out of left field, and hope in doesn't take away from the drama of Aragorn revealing himself to Sauron latter on.

I missed Shadowfax ( although he will most likely be in TT and ROTK).

Otherwise really good flick.

[Captain Stern]

The reason people like Glorfindel so much is because he was the same Glorfindel that saved Earendil in the fall of Gondolin in the 1st Age. He was fully capable of facing the 9, him being a powerful Elf Lord who had come back from the dead.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone who sees Arwen as a retiring elf princess will always be offended by PJ's interpretation. However elf woman were not retiring waifs. Galadriel was one of Tolkien favorite characters and her power evolved over time to the point where she was perhaps the equal of Feanor. Aredhel seems to have been quite an adventurous elfs as well. And of course Luthien is one of the great tolkien herioc characters
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is true but you don't see Galadriel and Luthien parading about with swords like Xena Warrior Princess sporting Hollywood one liners to match their awesome sword wielding abilities. Elf Maidens were enchantresses, they used their power to protect and if they so chose: to deceive and bewilder e.g Luthien enchanted Morgoth's entire court, enough so that Beren could tear a silmaril from Morgoth's crown without him noticing.

Not to mention that Elrond forbae Arwen to leave Rivendell, her mother was captured by Orcs and slain remember?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Galadriel was one of Tolkien favorite characters and her power evolved over time to the point where she was perhaps the equal of Feanor.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's pure speculation, it doesn't say that anywhere. If she had been the equal of Feanor Sauron would have had a much more dificult time on his hands.

[Kevin McIntyre]

Anyone who compare Arwens portrayal as that of Xena never really watched XENA. There were no arcrobatic scenes, none depicting great pysical strength or for that matter any real sword play (not yet anyway). The only thing Luthien didn't do was use a sword (at least to my knowledge), but she rode horses, rescued people and performed great PHYSICAL feats, besides what you have mentioned already.


As for Elrond forbidding Arwen from leaving Imradis due to Celebrian's attack and capture (she was not slain but instead headed west to Aman). However this occurred in the year 2509 of the third age. Arwen and Aragorn betrothal took place in Lorien in the year 2980. Either Arwen was pretty defiant or there was no ban. I'm interested in your source for the BAN.

Regarding Galadriel, it is speculation, but not mine. I suggest you reference the chapter from Unfinished Tales regarding Galadriel and Celeborn. In it Tolkien refers to Feanor and Galadriel as "the greated of the Eldar of Valinor" and in CT's notes Galadriel is "the equal if unlike in endowments of Feanor."

[Kevin McIntyre]

I know this has been discussed elsewhere, but Glorifindel's "reincarnation" was nothing unique to him, it is the nature of the elves (if they choose, it appears most prefer to stay in the halls of Mandos once they have been died).

Question - I know JRRT debated with himself if Glorifindel was one and the same person, but did he himself definitivly answer the question? If so what is the source?

[Captain Stern]

Sorry, I must be more rusty on my Lord of the Rings facts than I thought.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Either Arwen was pretty defiant or there was no ban.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elf Lords more than anyone were very protective of their daughters, with his wife captured in the past I would 'assume' that Elrond would put a lot of pressure on her to stay at home, I would again assume that Arwen was very sensitive to her father's wishes and would not disobey him lightly. In the film it seemed that Arwen was constantly riding around Middle Earth and that Elrond had no concirn over her safety.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding Galadriel, it is speculation, but not mine. I suggest you reference the chapter from Unfinished Tales regarding Galadriel and Celeborn. In it Tolkien refers to Feanor and Galadriel as "the greated of the Eldar of Valinor" and in CT's notes Galadriel is "the equal if unlike in endowments of Feanor."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh...yet another individual put above or equal to Feanor Luthien being the greater according to one source in HOME.
( you'll get along great with Inoldonil here on Entmoot )

Ahhh, I don't know, to me at least he'll always be the greatest ( cos that's how I like the 1st age )
I would be interested to hear at what time in his life Tolkien said this about Galadriel, if it was early on then it's possible he changed his mind, another thing to bear in mind is that this more powerful Galadriel didn't make it into Christopher Tolkien's final Silmarillion text.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question - I know JRRT debated with himself if Glorifindel was one and the same person, but did he himself definitivly answer the question? If so what is the source?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it may initially have been a mistake. Since Elves are never named the same, someone pointed this out to him and he decided that the Glorfindel of Gondolin and the Glorfindel of The Lord of the Rings were one and the same. It's in one of his letters, someone else here might be able to tell you which one, as I don't have a copy of 'letters' I for one don't have the time to search through old threads on the board.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know this has been discussed elsewhere, but Glorifindel's "reincarnation" was nothing unique to him, it is the nature of the elves (if they choose, it appears most prefer to stay in the halls of Mandos once they have been died).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wish I had my copy of The Lord of the Rings with me now ( i've borrowed my copy to a friend after he saw the film ) IF they don't have more 'power' after they are re-embodied they at least hold more terror over creatures of evil. For example when Maedhros was described in the Silmarillion it was said along these lines that: "orcs fled before his face for after his torment on Thangorodrim he had become as one returned from the dead" ( i couldn't find the exact quote sorry, but I remember it well ) this passage alone suggests the gains from being re-embodied after death.

[orald]

The two Glorfindels you speak of,are not the same elf.the first died fighting the Balrog,in Cirith Thoronath in the first age 511.The latter Glorfindel was considered the second most powerful elf in Rivendell,at the time of the rings departure.They are simular,they both are Eldarin lords,and both come from the house of Finarfin.And for some of the previous posts to suggest that the second Glorfindel was a minor character wouldn't be completey true,he was a major character,with a minor role in the telling,of the events surrounding the quest.But thats one of the fascinating things about the trilogy.

[arrogantprick]

GLOER

" But Elrond and Gandalf use the power of their elven rings to call the river to rise and they flood the nazgul away before they can reach other side."


Nowhere in LoTR is it stated that Elrond has one of the Elven rings as far as I am aware and Gandalf certainly doesnt have one.

It was not either of them that had anything to do with the flood at the ford. It is clearly laid out in the book that it was Glorfindel that was responsible.

[Kevin McIntyre]

Gandalf and Elrond have elven rings. Elrong had Vilya, the most powerful of the elven rings, given to him by Gil-Galad, or taken once he died. Gandalf carried Narya, given to him by Cirdain upon arrival to ME.

Maedhros was not slain when he suffered on the walls of Thangorodrim, although he did become more fierce after the torment.

Seeing Luthian as the equal to Feanor is not much of a stretch since her lineage include Maia (first generation).

[orald]

Elrond,owned one of the three rings,Vilya,and Gandalf owned Narya.Elrond flooded the Ford,and Gandalf added the wave of horses,that rode the front.

[Lightice]

Originally posted by arrogantprick

Nowhere in LoTR is it stated that Elrond has one of the Elven rings as far as I am aware and Gandalf certainly doesnt have one.

It was not either of them that had anything to do with the flood at the ford. It is clearly laid out in the book that it was Glorfindel that was responsible.

Read the appendix at least for once, and you'll find tons of additional info. For example Gandalf and Elrond both having ones of the three rings. Don't talk about things you don't know.

[bropous]

Folks, ain't much need in looking down our noses at others who don't have all the facts of Middle-Earth memorized and mentally indexed. Heck, I've read the books 24 times and still find new treasures of information each time through. I've read the Silmarillion seven times, and I can't really state with any authority whether Galadriel, sister of Finrod Felagund, King of Nargothrond, was the equal of Feanor, Silmaril-smith. I'm not so really sure it matters.

Of the Elvish Rings: The original recipients of the three rings which Celebrimbor crafted, which were hidden from and unsullied by Sauron, were Gil-Galad, Galadriel and Cirdan Shipwright. Gil-Galad gave his ring to Elrond Half-Elven, and Cirdan gave his to Olorin/Mithrandir. Source: Appendix B, The Return of the King.

Elrond's wife, Celebrian, daughter of Celeborn, received a poisoned dart at Redhorn Pass and, suffering grievously, passed into the West. Source: Ibid.

As for Arwen, I've stated before that I can accept the artistic license taken with this character. Never having watched Xena [yawn] I cannot contribute to the Xena v. Arwen debate. Thankfully.

However, Luthien Tinuviel was a very brave elven lady, daughter of Thingol and Melian the Maiar [correct?]. It is in no way inconsistent that Arwen might be sent to search for the Ringbearer in this retelling.

In my humble Entigish opinion...

[Kevin McIntyre]

Originally posted by arrogantprick
[B] GLOER

It was not either of them that had anything to do with the flood at the ford. It is clearly laid out in the book that it was Glorfindel that was responsible.

Glorifindel knew the flood was coming, but it was Elrond who controlled the upper part of the river Bruinen.

[bropous]

Okay, I made the argument that we shouldn't down others for not getting all the little facts right. But come on, here!

Neither Elrond nor Gandalf had anything to do with the flood of the Bruinen, it was Glorfindel? Absolutely, positively, incorrect, arrogantprick. I DO suggest you taking another look at both chapters, "Flight to the Ford" and "Many Meetings" in Fellowship of the Ring. Gandalf states PLAINLY that Elrond raised the Bruinen to flood down on the Nazgul, and that Gandalf "added his own touch" of the white horses. Glorfindel had nothing to do with this.

As for neither Elrond nor Gandalf having two of the three Rings for the elven Kings under the sky, you REALLY need to read the book again. Elrond was given his ring by the High Elven King Gil-Galad at his fall in the final battle of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men [Elrond was Gil-Galad's herald.]

Cirdan the Shipwright, guardian of the Grey Havens, gave HIS ring to Gandalf upon the Wizards' [Istari's] arrival in Middle-Earth.
Source: Appendix B, The Third Age, Page 417, Return of the King.

arrogantprick, you REALLY need to try reading an appendix sometime.

[orald]

There is a rumor floating around the web,saying P. Jackson will release on dvd, a 6 hr unedited version of his film,that will include Tom Bombadil,and much more,I for one won't believe it,till I hear peter himself say it's so,but it is a nice rumor,and very possible on dvd.

[jerseydevil]

Did anyone notice that Glamdring does not glow like Sting does in the Mines of Moria?