heat;h care in america

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
So what are people's thoughts about Christopher Reeve (the guy that played Superman in the movies and had a fall from a horse and is paralyzed)? Someone brought up how there are so many good treatments now that it drives up prices. Reeve has had MILLIONS spent on him, and he seems to think that other people in his situation should have the same treatments. So where is the line drawn? You could easily spend millions of dollars on many types of treatments for many conditions and bankrupt the medical system, it seems.

Christopher Reeve started the Christopher Reeve Paralysis Foundation in northern NJ. He does a lot for NJ since he is one - born and raised in Princeton. I'm 99% sure that him being a New Jerseyan has a lot to do with why we are the second state to allow stem cell research.

McGreevey Signs Landmark Stem Cell Research Act
Takes Groundbreaking Step Towards Fulfilling Commitment to Make NJ National Medical Research Leader

(WEST ORANGE) -- Governor James E. McGreevey today signed into law S1909, the “Stem Cell Research� bill, making New Jersey the second state in the nation to legalize stem cell research. In signing this bill into law, the Governor takes a landmark step in fulfilling his commitment to make New Jersey the nation’s leader for medical research.

“Two years ago we laid out a vision to make New Jersey a leader in medical research and medical care, to give hope to the hundreds of thousands of families across the state affected by chronic and life-threatening disease,� said McGreevey. “Today, as New Jersey becomes the second state in the nation to legalize groundbreaking stem cell research, we build on our strength in medical research, and for the first time offer real hope to the hundreds of thousands suffering from diabetes, Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s, ALS, cancer and spinal cord injuries.

“Despite facing overwhelming opposition from many fronts along the way, today we celebrate a great day for families, for research, and for the hope that miracles may be just around the corner.�

The Governor signed the bill into law at the renowned Kessler Rehabilitation Institute in West Orange, where he was joined by actor Christopher Reeve. Reeve, who has fought tirelessly for stem cell research since he was paralyzed in a horseback riding accident, pledged with McGreevey, in the Fall of 2002, to get this legislation passed. The bill’s legislative sponsors, doctors from the Kessler Institute, and families who have fought to make stem cell research a reality, also joined McGreevey.

The bill:

· Permits research involving the derivation and use of human embryonic stem cells, human embryonic germ cells and human adult stem cells from any source, including somatic cell nuclear transplantation.

· Requires a review of issues related to this research by a nine-member institutional review board, which will advise the Governor and the Legislature.

· Requires physicians treating a patient for infertility to provide patients with information to allow them to make an informed and voluntary choice regarding the use of human embryos following infertility treatment.

· This legislation also prohibits a person from purchasing or selling, or deriving any financial gain or advantage through the use of embryonic or cadaveric fetal tissue for research purposes. However, such tissue can be donated. The law also punishes persons in violation of this law with a civil penalty of not more than $50,000 or imprisonment for a term of not more than five years, or both, for each such incident.

“This law is one of the most significant laws ever passed in the State of New Jersey," said Democratic Senate President Richard J. Codey. "And with its passage, New Jersey finally gets to show the world exactly where we stand on stem cell research. We stand on the side of hope and on the side of cures for millions of people who are suffering in the world. Clearly that's the right side to be on, and I'm proud New Jersey's now on it."

"Today, New Jersey takes a giant step towards victory in the worldwide war against disease and human suffering," said Senator Barbara Buono, D-Middlesex. "What a monumental holiday gift for us all--to be able to say that this law is truly going to make the world a better place."

"Medically advanced research that could potentially discover cures for devastating and life-threatening illnesses is now a viable reality in New Jersey," said Assemblyman Neil Cohen, D-Union. "Our state will be national leader in cutting-edge medical technology and scientific research that will save lives."

"New Jersey is seizing the opportunity to be at the forefront of stem cell research," said Assemblyman John McKeon, D-Essex. "This new law will eliminate existing significant impediments to this emerging biotechnology."

"Scientific stem cell research would not only help develop innovative health care treatments, but it could unlock cures to Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, Multiple Sclerosis, cancer, diabetes, and other life-altering diseases," said Assemblyman Mims Hackett, D-Essex.

"Research shows that stem cell harvesting research is medically promising," said Assemblywoman Joan Quigley, D-Hudson. "The possibilities for further medical advancements are endless."

I agree with stem cell research - it's one of the few things our governor has done right.

[Coney II]

Quickly slips this teeny tiny post in before SGH comes back

Originally posted by jerseydevil
As for American (US) - why - when we have always been called American - you had it right the first time. As for US that is our country - not nationality.

American(US) I've only really used when the convo has involved the continent itself, tis just easier to type to clarify when meaning the country rather than the whole

Runs back out the thread

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney II
Quickly slips this teeny tiny post in before SGH comes back

American(US) I've only really used when the convo has involved the continent itself, tis just easier to type to clarify when meaning the country rather than the whole

If you are talking about the continent - then there are TWO continents - either it's North American or South American. American - refers to a US citizen.

[afro-elf]

Ok, let's get back on topic.

Might population size pay a role in the cost of health or % of GNP spent on health care?

I queried my friend in Ukraine about free health care. Her response was that there one only went to free doctors when you were healthly.

Any thoughts on the pro's and con's of a two tier system?

[Rían]

And my question on Reeve was not about the research he's been pushing, but on the idea of should everyone with his type of injury have millions of dollars spent on them, like he has had because of his personal fortune and the wealth of his friends?

One of my nieces had some serious medical problems, and her care reached 1 million dollars, which was the cap. Then her dad's company changed to a different insurance company (nothing to do with her, they just renegotiated), and she was able to get more care. (she finally died after a few years ) Where should we draw the line on spending?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
And my question on Reeve was not about the research he's been pushing, but on the idea of should everyone with his type of injury have millions of dollars spent on them, like he has had because of his personal fortune and the wealth of his friends?

One of my nieces had some serious medical problems, and her care reached 1 million dollars, which was the cap. Then her dad's company changed to a different insurance company (nothing to do with her, they just renegotiated), and she was able to get more care. (she finally died after a few years ) Where should we draw the line on spending?

But not only is he getting care - and yeah he gets the EXTRA care because he's wealthy - I don't really see a problem with that - but he also gives a lot too. So - what is the dividing line - not everyone can afford the same health care - not even in Britain does everyone have the same health care - people who can afford private insurance - have it. I know that because the owners of Colographic all had their own insurance because they could afford it.

There should be NO line drawn on spending - new procedures and so forth cost a lot more. If people who can afford them don't pay for them - then they will never lead to new inventions and so forth. The expensive procedures Christopher Reeve has gotten has given doctors who specialize in spinal cord injuries the money to carry on research that they would not otherwise be able to do.

[Rían]

So do you think, tho, that EVERY person who has the condition that Reeve has should ALSO get the same treatment and medical equipment that he got (such as specialized wheelchairs), even if they can't pay for it? And if they can't pay for it, who does? That's what I mean. You said "he gets the EXTRA care because he's wealthy" - it's his choice to do what he wants with his money, but is it wrong of society to NOT give poorer people the same treatment and equipment for free? I ask this seriously, because I don't see how it's practical, but I also think that health care needs some reforms.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
So do you think, tho, that EVERY person who has the condition that Reeve has should ALSO get the same treatment and medical equipment that he got (such as specialized wheelchairs), even if they can't pay for it? And if they can't pay for it, who does? That's what I mean. You said "he gets the EXTRA care because he's wealthy" - it's his choice to do what he wants with his money, but is it wrong of society to NOT give poorer people the same treatment and equipment for free?

No - I don't think it is wrong - nor do I think that everyone should get the same wheelchair as he does or the same care. People who can afford the extras will get the extras, people who make more get more - I see nothing wrong with that. Sorry - not everything is equal - that is the way of the world. It's cold it's hard - but it's a fact. I know that if I have a spinal cord injury - I won't be able to have the same care as him - but neither can I have the same house, cars, vacations, or anything else he has either. To expect it is just wrong in my opinion.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
And my question on Reeve was not about the research he's been pushing, but on the idea of should everyone with his type of injury have millions of dollars spent on them, like he has had because of his personal fortune and the wealth of his friends?

No. I would argue that it would be morally wrong for that level of spending to be available to everyone, unless we had an infinite health budget.

The reason would be that there is a finite amount of resources available to meet an infinite demand, which means that someone else would be losing out to pay for highly speculative treatment which has unproven efficacy and which, even if it does work, leads to a comparatively small improvement in quality of life.

We need rational decisions about how these resources are allocated. This means balancing the needs of individuals with society's need to get the maximum benefit from the available resource.

Reeve, of course, is perfectly entitled to spend his money on what he wants; his achievements have been remarkable and no doubt have helped to push forward our understanding of spinal injuries.

Another aspect to this situation is the amount of media attention it gets and how it therefore affects people's expectations of what can be achieved.

Again, it's that care vs cure thing. Quite naturally, when something goes wrong, we want to know why and we want to fix it. Often, that is just not possible and it's more important to help a person come to terms with their situation and adjust their life accordingly.

[hectorberlioz]

SisAunt made me think of this question...

Is the determining factor of government spending on issues like stem cell research, healthcare, welfare, or war...determined by the MAJORITY of opinion of people pro or con, sought by politicians?

Of course I phrased that question like a good politician, which I am, so have fun deciphering it.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

No - I don't think it is wrong - nor do I think that everyone should get the same wheelchair as he does or the same care. People who can afford the extras will get the extras, people who make more get more - I see nothing wrong with that. Sorry - not everything is equal - that is the way of the world. It's cold it's hard - but it's a fact. I know that if I have a spinal cord injury - I won't be able to have the same care as him - but neither can I have the same house, cars, vacations, or anything else he has either. To expect it is just wrong in my opinion.

Amen to that Good old JD on politics.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

I can tell you one thing -- any discussion of 'the cost of health care' had better include insurance, as well as government funding.

And the first entitlement I'd eliminate would be fertility treatments.

Reading a newspaper about some woman with undersize quintuplets who will need extreme medical care because she ate clomid for lunch makes me wild. NO one, and by this I mean, not the left, not the right, not the rich, not the poor wants to actually be responsible for the choices they make. Everyone has a reason their goodies are essential.

People with spinal injuries are a drop in the bucket, comparatively.

[hectorberlioz]

You're right Sis, you do pay more taxes than me...this stuff is over my head as far as experience goes, and probably the majority of technicalities.

What do you think about Rudy's assertion that an abortion is a "right" so far as to obligate the Gov't to pay for the abortion?

[The Gaffer]

To answer your original question, I don't think that health care research and spending should be decided by popular vote; it should be decided by people with the expertise. What politicians, accountable to voters, should do is create a framework within which these sorts of judgments can be made rationally and transparently.

Fertility treatment is an interesting example, as you could keep on having IVF as often as you like, and there are plenty of dodgy clinics offering false hope to people who are desperate. e.g. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ma/6272083.stm

If abortion is legal and available for medical reasons, and the government provides funding for medical interventions, then you'd be politicising health care by preventing it from being spent on abortions.

The knives are out for Guiliani already I see...

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

To answer your original question, I don't think that health care research and spending should be decided by popular vote; it should be decided by people with the expertise. What politicians, accountable to voters, should do is create a framework within which these sorts of judgments can be made rationally and transparently.

Fertility treatment is an interesting example, as you could keep on having IVF as often as you like, and there are plenty of dodgy clinics offering false hope to people who are desperate. e.g. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ma/6272083.stm

That 'doctor' is, in the quaint phrase, "a piece of work."

If abortion is legal and available for medical reasons, and the government provides funding for medical interventions, then you'd be politicising health care by preventing it from being spent on abortions.

In the US, even 'legal" proceedures and medications are undermined by having doctors and pharmacists who are unwilling to dispense them.

[The Gaffer]

Heh.

In the latter case, my instinct is that a health care practitioner is at liberty not to practise things which are against their conscience.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Heh.

In the latter case, my instinct is that a health care practitioner is at liberty not to practise things which are against their conscience.

Also against their insurance, since clinic blockades and bombings "influence' whether they do something or not.

The risk of being blown up at work or shot in your kitchen might reasonably cause you to choose another specialty.

[The Gaffer]

I can see how that might be...

Is there still a lot of that going on?