Muslims

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Believe me - I don't have a gingoistic attitude. I guess I should just go along with what everyone else says on this board and say the US sucks. Then everyone will be happy and you can include me in your "enlightened" group. Yeah - right - like that'll happen. . I don't think you are any more enlightened - I think you just have a different opinion then me. But your opinion is NOT going to chaneg mine nor is your attitude.

nor do I have any desire to change your opinion. Like I said I just wanted to ask you some questions and you are notorious for assuming theres a motive behind it so I couched it several times with language stating that its just out of curiosity and there was no hidden trap behind it. And there isn’t. by the way I don’t think the US sucks. Nor do I consider myself at all “enlightened”. J

Yeah - I'd like to see a European say something nice about the US. But then hell would freeze over.

I think Earniel just did.

Why should it embarrass you? It didn't concern you whatsoever.

because it was such a horrible mindless knee jerk response and as an American I didn’t really see anything offensive with what he said. It all seemed pretty much reasonable. And then when you blew up in response I was really surprised.

YOu would read my damn posts you would know that I don't support Israel in everything. I even stated it in this thread. But I think the Palestinians are more at fault.

well I read all your “damn posts” in this thread and I didn’t see one word about how Israel was also at fault in some things and I cant really follow you around in every thread reading all 5000+ of your posts in hopes of memorizing your opinion on all things.

but looking at the REPEATED suicide bombings - what do you suggest Israel do?

no clue honestly. It’s a nasty situation and like I said both sides think they are right. But they could start by electing a prime minister (is that the term?) more open to dialogue and not as equally militant AGAINST the palastinians as some of the palastinians are against the Israelies. That might be a good first step. Course the last time we had one he got shot… by a jew.

I think Israel is currently REACTING to the BLATANT hatred the Arabs have for Jews. If you don't see their hatred then you are truly blind.

I see hatred on both sides. And each side thinks they are “reacting”. Nothing will ever get accomplished with that kind of thinking don’t you agree?

No -= I don't - but when Israel has retrained themselves - it back fires. What would you do - if grocery stores were being bombed here, if restaurants were being bombed, etc? Would you want the US to just sit down and talk to bin Ladin?

so then you are saying ALL the palastinians are the equivilant of Oshama? Or are you making the connection between bib ladin and Arafat? I don’t either of those comparisons really work as much as you may hate Arafat I don’t see him as the equivilant of a vicious mindless remorseless terrorist bent on some religious extremist vision of the annihilation of the US. I just see him as a rat trying to survive and get a little piece of the pie along the way. You can hate him for that but it’s a different thing.

How long do the Palestinians need to stonewall peace before people stop blaming Israel?

like I said im of the impression that “the Palestinians” genuinely want peace. Which you seem to disagree with by this statement. Now put Arafat in there in place of “the Palestinians” and that can be more reasonably considered. Kind of like the “the Americans” blanket statements you so vehemently disagree with… hmmm…

[sun-star]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I do see that SGH. And you may not believe it, but I think I do know how that feels. However I hope you understand that switching it around and starting to bash Europe and other countries at even the least expectation of anti-americism is also no solution. That is getting old too. And it only strengthens some people's belief in exactly those false stereotypes that you mentioned.

A bad comment about America is made, and is immediatly followed by an anti-europe one and it goes on and on and on. I am so very tired of it. Every time the threads start to revolve around this America versus the world-debate.

This constant pot-kettle-premise isn't going to solve anything, it'll only bring us deeper and deeper into trenches. Frankly I don't think there is a clear-cut solution to this. But I wish it would just stop.

I would just like to say that I absolutely agree, Eärniel

And also that I think America is a fascinating country and the Americans I've met have (mostly) been friendly, intelligent, interesting people. The Europeans I've met have also (mostly) been all those things. This is so obvious I'm really surprised it needs saying

And a bit more on topic - I don't think there's a problem with Muslims in general. It will take a few generations for large groups to integrate, but it's happened before - immigrants come and eventually become part of our society (hopefully without losing their own cultural identity). I don't see it as a big deal, certainly not in the UK.

[Insidious Rex]

I've answered your questions - now do you think Arafat supports peace?

Arafat only supports what will keep him alive and in some semblance of power for as long as possible. If he were to actually advocate the peace proposals given by Sharon he would be trumpeted out of office and probably killed by the true Palestinian terrorists who he has no real power over. Hes in a bind AND hes a rat. So don’t expect much from him. And don’t assume he is the same as every common Palestinian.

Do think the suicide bombers bring peace

no. that was easy.

dismantle the checkpoints?

I think check points that stop the common Palestinian from getting to work or market or from getting to a hospital before they DIE do create hatred and thus more terrorists. So the Israelies do themselves no service in keeping these posts in the way they are with the attitude of too bad you arabs but we make the rules. But… theres gotta be some kind of check situation sure because yes there ARE wacko extremists. The true question is how do you get at the small number of terrorists who want to destroy Israel WITHOUT creating many many many more who feel they have nothing else left in their lives but to kill themselves because they are so disgusted with the inhumane treatment they have received at the hands of the israelies who are themselves legitimately trying to defend themselves from tragedies. And this is the crux of the dilemma. And don’t even think about asking me how you solve it. Do YOU know?

[Valandil]

Hmmm - perhaps we have strayed a bit wide from the initial intent of this thread - prejudice displayed toward Muslims in western society (esp since 9-11-01). What say we all consider our points well-scored, lick our wounds, make apologies we feel necessary and move on?

And actually, it isn't JUST Muslims in America who suffer fallout from the 9-11 attacks: I know some Christian families - a few Arab-American and Indian-American, who get lots of stares in public, feel like they have to be more careful, didn't feel like they could leave their homes just after the incidents, etc. We don't wear our religious affiliations on our skin - just our skin tones. These friends of mine felt alienated in their own society. I'm sure Muslims felt much the same - it just wasn't unique to those of the Islamic faith.

[Valandil]

I see you're all here - so what's up? Everybody reading, nobody writing? Do I get the last word on everything around here?

[Artanis]

Geez. The first page in this thread was actually interesting.

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Sween, you may not have intended for this thread to become political or another 9/11 thread, but I think you will find that this topic probably cannot be discussed without those things being applied. It does tie in.

I disagree. If you would like to discuss Middle East or 9/11 another thread should be made. I think Sween intended this thread to be about muslims (which is not equivalent with Arabs!) and stereotypes.

I also agree with everything Eärniel has said.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, don't you think it is human nature to go by first impression, or example? When we see Palastinians celebrating the deaths of thousands of innocent people, and not all that died in 9/11 were Americans btw, don't you think that leaves a bad taste in the mouths of Americans? Although it is very true that most Americans do not look at all Muslims in that way, the actions of the Muslim world certianly has not helped the peace process with Israel, even if it only be a handful. Not all Palistinians are suicide bombers, but I find that I have to agree with JD here, in that when this is something that they shove down their kids throats, and teach them this kind of hatred, and unrealistic views of the rest of the world, you are actually creating a future race of prejudice, narrow minded human beings that will portray the victim at every turn. The problem is, is that when these kids are taught this, they believe and truely do not know they way it is. They, like kids everywhere will follow that example set down by mom and dad. Sad, isn't it?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Geez. The first page in this thread was actually interesting. I disagree. If you would like to discuss Middle East or 9/11 another thread should be made. I think Sween intended this thread to be about muslims (which is not equivalent with Arabs!) and stereotypes.

Well, that may have been Sweens intention, but I think considering the muslim world's reactions in many ways to 9/11 and the instability in the middle-east, it is well within the topic. I think you will find that these subjects will always be hard to leave out of a thread like this, IMO.

[Valandil]

One observation I've heard is that the European media seems quite slanted toward the Palestinian viewpoint (and some would fear that's due to lingering anti-semitism in Europe, but I don't necessarily think so) while the American media has been slanted more toward the Israeli viewpoint (and some think THAT is changing!).

If that's the case, it helps us understand the gulf in viewpoints between Americans and Europeans (or is a result of it? both?).

Also heard about a recently published book with an interesting premise. Has to do with two different concepts of a democracy - one established in 18th century Philadelphia, the other in 18th century Paris. The books posits that the former has an eye toward popular representation on all issues. The latter is more focused on "international norms". So that for American-style democracy, representation of the governed is essential. European-style democracy DISTRUSTS this as populist and nationalistic - and attributes it's two World Wars to this kind of democracy at work. Americans don't understand how a group of Europeans can spend three days in Serbia and start drafting a constitution for it without Serbians involved in the process (valuing representation) while the Europeans have no problem with it and don't see why the Americans do - it's all according to international norms anyway.

Not DIRECTLY related to Muslims here, but bears on international differences as we all try to figure out where we move from here in Iraq and perhaps other areas. And maybe clues us in to why we disagree on some things - and think we're speaking the same language when maybe we are not.

Last word again?

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Valandil
Gaffer - you honestly see Israel eradicating Palestinians? I just don't see it. In fact, I think they could have done so - and that it's to their credit that they haven't made the effort.

Please stop putting words into my mouth. We'll never get anywhere. But yes, [sarcasm]congratulations on not wiping out an entire race.[/sarcasm]

Originally posted by Valandil
and Gaffer... if it's the state of Palestine you're refering to, it doesn't exist NOW. Israel is willing to accept a new one - but each time they get close, another bomber goes off in a bus or a cafe. What would YOU do?

OK, I accept the olive branch, but I want to be clear on a number of things before we go on.
- I have known many Americans, in many difference capacities, teacher, student, colleague, flatmate, friend, one-off acquaintance, and liked almost all of them. I am not anti-American.
- anti-American attitudes do exist in Europe, partly (probably) because some people resent them for being powerful and successful, partly because some people resent their perceived imperialism (and before some wise pranker jumps on my case, please see the emphasis on PERCEIVED)
- I can understand why Israelis feel threatened. My god, all their neighbours hate them with a vengeance.
- I condemn all terrorism
- I understand why Palestinians feel oppressed and desperate. How would you feel if your family farm was confiscated and handed over to someone from the other side of the world who just happens to be of the right religion? IR hit the nail on the head there.
- I totally agree that this thread is not about any of the above

And here's the main point:

SGH: it IS human nature to go by first impression, but that's where prejudice comes from. You seem to be saying that it's OK to be led by these impressions.

My point is that you need to be critical of these impressions, and have faith that there are human beings underneath it all. Where do they come from? We've already heard that the so-called "celebrations" after 9/11 were faked.

Never heard of the expression "through a scanner darkly"?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
I guess what Im asking is (while trying to avoid your knee jerking in my direction…) is do you seriously in all honesty think the approach Sharon and Israel is taking now toward the Palastinians is really the best way to go about things? Im really just curious.

Sharon at least tries to get to peace. Sharon was also voted in a democratic elections.
Arafat, on the other hand, did the opposite.

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
But that they genuinely feel they have been backed so far in a corner that what recourse do they have?

Well, they started. And they can stop attacking us. When they'll stop I guarantee we won't attack them.

And for those people who made the comments well they hide terrorists in with people so if we kill women and children that’s just the way it goes well what kind of thinking is that?

No, but, as I said, we almost never bomb buildings with people inside that are not terrorists. and we almost never bomb buildings - we're going inside, capture the terrorist, and thewn destroy the building.

Its brutal murderous butchery either way. On BOTH sides. And BOTH sides genuinely feel the way they feel. One side isn’t kinda sitting back and snickering about how they are getting away with something they know is wrong. They both feel they are right. That’s where the seed of the conflict is.

Of course we're right. We're just fighting back. We have no other choises, except surrender to the terror. It's like blackmailing - and we don't demand anything from them except to stop terror.

Originally posted by The Gaffer
But do you really believe that most Palestinians celebrated 9/11??? If so, you are more brainwashed than those drunks in the bar.

I'm sure most of them didn't go celebrating in the streets (it doesn't mean they weren't happy though), becuase that would be over 1 million of palestinians.

I would agree if you change the word "fighting" for "Palestine".

I think you're wrong. We can destroy the Palestines whenever we want. but we don't want. The Palestines, in the other hand, do want to destroy Israel.

Btw:There is no Palestine now. There will be, probably, but there isn't right now.

But they could start by electing a prime minister (is that the term?) more open to dialogue and not as equally militant AGAINST the palastinians as some of the palastinians are against the Israelies. That might be a good first step. Course the last time we had one he got shot… by a jew.

No, The Prime Minister that was murdered, Isac Rabin, was murdered 8 years ago. 2 other prime ministers tried their best, but the Palestinians didn't agree - they wanted more then offered. (and Ehud Barak offered them much more then Sharon now)

like I said im of the impression that “the Palestinians” genuinely want peace. Which you seem to disagree with by this statement. Now put Arafat in there in place of “the Palestinians” and that can be more reasonably considered. Kind of like the “the Americans” blanket statements you so vehemently disagree with… hmmm…

I do think the palestinians want peace. But as long as so many don't want - and MANY MANY don't want - we, Israelis, wouldn't want to discuss with them. And I'm talking about the most of the country, the coalition. And by the surveys right now, Sharon is still leading.

I think check points that stop the common Palestinian from getting to work or market or from getting to a hospital before they DIE do create hatred and thus more terrorists. So the Israelies do themselves no service in keeping these posts in the way they are with the attitude of too bad you arabs but we make the rules.

We do make the rules. Because:
1. lots of Palestinians work in Israel. There aren't many places to work in the autonomy.
2. Israel supplies water, food, medicians, electricity etc. to the autonomy. Without us the autonomy would collapse.
3. we are simply stronger. We have the right to have everything we have. including some areas in the boundaries (I'm not sure if this word is correct. Try 'frontiers' if it doesn't fit). We conquerwed thsese ares in a war that the arabs started.

[Sister Golden Hair]

SGH: it IS human nature to go by first impression, but that's where prejudice comes from. You seem to be saying that it's OK to be led by these impressions.

Oh no, I never said that. I am saying that when this kind of impression is revealed on tv, than it isn't unusual for people to say or think that that is how it is being viewed. I am saying also, that impression is a powerful thing. Not that it's correct behavior to be influenced and draw a conclusion from it, but, that it is a reaction to a reaction. So, as you said earlier: "don't put words in my mouth."

[Radagast The Brown]

originally posted by Artanis
I think Sween intended this thread to be about muslims (which is not equivalent with Arabs!) and stereotypes.

No, muslims are not arabs. but Iran is a muslim country - and it is still in the discussion. You won't find many large countries that are not arabic too. (Iran, Indonesia, Pakistan, Turkey)

- I understand why Palestinians feel oppressed and desperate. How would you feel if your family farm was confiscated and handed over to someone from the other side of the world who just happens to be of the right religion?

If Israel 'confiscate' somebody's family farm, it was 35 years ago. Why didn't they faught Israel 35 years ago? Wht made them feel depressed now?

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
So, as you said earlier: "don't put words in my mouth."

Touche!

But you did say that Palestinian children are being indoctrinated to hate Jews/The West. I took that to be quite a generalisation. However, I think there's some truth in it, and I agree that it's terribly depressing.

But it's not without hope. Look at Rwanda: a country which was racked by attempted genocide, where children were encouraged to go around hacking their neighbours to pieces. It's still a mess, but they're rebuilding (albeit under an authoritarian dictatorship). Look at Northern Ireland, a religious battleground almost as old as the Middle East (well, 400 years compared with 1,400 years, but you get my point), where terrorism has been all but eliminated.

BTW, Radagast, I also happen to be of the view that the Israelis are more moral (by my standards) in the way that they pursue their goals than Islamic Jihad are in the way they pursue theirs. However, that's not the point. The Palestinians' profound sense of grievance is real and not based on imaginary or historical slights, and that's the fuel for the nutters' fire.

The real enemy is extremism. I think that if the majority can be given a voice, hope and a realistic process for acheiving their goals, no matter what the situation, peace is possible. Which is why we need to get underneath our impressions and try to understand each other as human beings.

Alternatively, you could lock all the men up in a cupboard for a year. (There was a conference of Israeli and Palestinian women in London recently which was very amicable and constructive. )

[Sister Golden Hair]

Which is why we need to get underneath our impressions and try to understand each other as human beings.

That is why I said earlier, that we should recall the words of John Dunn. He wrote For Whom The Bell Tolls. This is just a couple small parts that I found applicable:

No man is an island intire of itself. Every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.

Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind. Therefore, never send to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee.

Maybe that seems corney.

[Falagar]

I would reccomend this link on the war between Israel and Palestinians. Don't know if all that's said there is true, but it's worth a read (and I think everyone should know a bit more of the conflict before they decide which 'side' they're on, or if it's worth taking anyone's side at all).

I'll possibly say something on it myself tomorrow, when I'm not busy trying to keep my eyes open.

Edit: This link should also be of interest: http://www.jewsagainsttheoccupation.org/backinfo.html

[Sween]

This thread has certinally made a few things clear to me in my mind.

Will everyone please go back and read the origional post. I set up this thread to find out how people view Muslims.

Conclusions that can be drawn from this thread so far

- Say muslim people think America hater, Plasistine, Middle east, Terrorism

- People defintally seem to be focusing on the negative of these people at the moment

- There seem little effort/intrest to understand these people and there action just an overiding ambition to condem them.

- We cannot have a 'religious/racial' dissussion without it becomming a 'political' dissussion!

Now in a way this has served it purpose its clear to me that people are finding it very difficult to drawn a line between Muslims and terrorism etc!

And Gaffer you have to be around a lot longer before you can make personal comments about JD ive been here ages so i can say what i want (but i chose to keep that to myself)

[Radagast The Brown]

Falagar, I can tell that this is an arabic site - it is definetly pro-palestinian. But the maps are ok. the introduction (palastinien arabs - minority n Israel) is all wrong.
About the Racism - I admit that there are many racists here. one of my friends is. But most of the Israelis are not racist. (I don't have time to read the article. I'm saying that only about the title.

I will continue tomorrow. I must run. See you tomorrow!

[edit] Sween, I can tell you what I think about the religion, Islam: it's awful. much more strict then jewdaism, or christianity. If I wasn't jew, one of the religions I would definately don't want to be is Islam.

[jerseydevil]

I

Originally posted by The Gaffer
The real enemy is extremism. I think that if the majority can be given a voice, hope and a realistic process for acheiving their goals, no matter what the situation, peace is possible. Which is why we need to get underneath our impressions and try to understand each other as human beings.

Gaffer - this is what I agree with. But then what do you do when one side does everything to destroy any chance of peace. Now I don't agree with the settlements - but I think they should be turned over the Palestinians if there is a Palestine - but I think the people living there should be allowed to live there freely - but under a Palestinian government. There is NO reason that Jews and Palestinians should not be allowed to live side by side in peace. They have lived in peace in Israel. The thing is the Palestinians in the area do NOT want jews living by them at all - whereas Jews accept Palestinians to live in Israel.

Sween - I don't think American hater when I think of muslim, islam or Middle East - but they are the most vocal and according to surveys in the majority. Of course everyone isn't as i said repeatedly - we have a lot of muslims here and we have a mosque just a few miles on rt 1 from where I live. If you look at the posts I had made before OTHERS dragged the discussion away - you will see that.

[HOBBIT]

Is Islam really a peaceful religion? In school, all we hear about it is how it is so peaceful it is, etc, and what a great religion it is.

I personally don't like it much after reading about it in my history text books and other sources. I thought there were some "war like" elements to it. I mean, in its beginning they went on huge war conquests to try to make the whole world Muslims. Phew, thank god for Charles Martel. But of course there are the crusades with Christians and if you take the bible to be historical accurate, the hebrew people conquered a bunch of lands.

Basically,

I'm a little confused that now in school ppl are saying that Jihad has nothing to do with war?? I thought that was the whole point of it? Calling a jihad against infidels, etc. no? In the Middle East death against infidels is preached, is it not?

Then why do all these muslims seem to think it is?

Like JD says, there is all this footage of Palestinians and other Muslims in Arab nations cheering on the death of Israelis and Americans. What is with all the homicide bombings?

Seems to me that a majority of the Muslims in the middle east have a hatred for the Israelis and Americans. Or is this just how the stupid media is portraying them? They all seems like fanatics over there.

It just seems that everything is messed up over there, and Muslims in this contry sypmathize with them and support them.

A majority of terrorists these days seem to be like 90% Muslim, so I don't know what to think there?


What in the religion of Islam makes all these fanatic nuts think that by blowing up innocent ppl they will get to paradise?

I personally have nothing against the people of that religion, I just don't like that religion much.

I only know of one Muslim in my grade - probably a couple more.

I'm not prejudiced, just not one of my favorite religions. If I met a really nice person who was Muslim, it would not make much difference to me. I would get along fine.