who else? - Page 5

Tuor of Gondolin · 10-24-2003, 12:57 AM

There once was a king named Theoden
Long a revered leader of Rohan.
He was duped by a Grima
But saved by a maia.
Then became a leader of men again.

Elfhelm · 10-24-2003, 12:59 AM

I mean, go to the Books forum and read the posts there now. I don't mean how many ever. Gee. Why not run those numbers on JD since he's inclined to attack people and call them non-readers? Why not tell us exactly where he has been spending his time here?

jerseydevil · 10-24-2003, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elfhelm
I mean, go to the Books forum and read the posts there now. I don't mean how many ever. Gee. Why not run those numbers on JD since he's inclined to attack people and call them non-readers? Why not tell us exactly where he has been spending his time here?

I've read the books 12 times. I don't feel I have to prove it to anyone. I'm not the one saying that Jackson improved on Tolkien and was pure genius. When I have something to say on the books forums - I will. Others know I know the books because I talk to them - or help them with the games.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-24-2003, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elfhelm
I mean, go to the Books forum and read the posts there now. I don't mean how many ever. Gee. Why not run those numbers on JD since he's inclined to attack people and call them non-readers? Why not tell us exactly where he has been spending his time here?

I already know that JD doesn't post much in the book forums. I also know that he does know the books. I didn't say BB hadn't read the books, but I have not read in the book forums any topic that he has posted to that is not in some way movie related. This is going to be the final word on this.

Everyone- If this thread does not get back on topic and stay there, it is going to be closed.

hectorberlioz · 10-24-2003, 01:21 AM

Okay, back on subject.
After a long time of his lies and deciet, Grima Wormtongue has made Theoden blind to logic and what is REALLY going on in the world. In a sense Grima has poisoned Theoden with his lies.

Elfhelm · 10-24-2003, 01:24 AM

I suspect that b.banner, the person who started this thread, hasn't read the books yet, either. (How's THAT for a segue?!) Theoden is one of Tolkien's favorite characters, I am certain, because he has a name that means "prince" in anglo-saxon, and that was Tolkien's specialty. The state that he is in as depicted in the movie is a sorry one, and I trust the movie-goers will come to love him. Did you see in the trailer that Pippin is swearing fealty to him? I think you'll all love that scene!

Black Breathalizer · 10-24-2003, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Great Jackson fanfiction. ... Orthanc WAS Saruman's home and Saruman led Gandalf up to the top. Saruman was also more powerful - so why is it so impossible? Gandalf in the book clearly trusted Saruman until he took his staff and imprisoned him. Radagast also had no reason to distrust Saruman and had delivered the message to Gandalf to go to Isengard.

Great Jerseydevil fanfiction. Show me in the book where Gandalf describes being led to the top of Orthanc.

It sure seems a tad hypocritical for jerseydevil and his Tolkien "Truth Squad" to be believe they're allowed to make assumptions based on the text but not Peter Jackson. Speaking of hypocritical...

Quote:

Recently posted by Sister Golden Hair
Everyone- If this thread does not get back on topic and stay there, it is going to be closed.

Quote:

Previously posted to this thread by Sister Golden Hair
I did a thorough search on BB's posting in the book forums. He has started a total of two threads in the LotRs books forum. One in the Silmarillion forum. None in the Middle-earth forum. He has posted to four threads in the LotRs forum that were started by other people. Not an abundant amount I'd say. I'm not saying he hasn't read the books, but the majority of his posting is in the movie forum.

Quote:

Previously posted to this thread by Sister Golden Hair
I already know that JD doesn't post much in the book forums. I also know that he does know the books. I didn't say BB hadn't read the books, but I have not read in the book forums any topic that he has posted to that is not in some way movie related.

Quote:

Previously posted to this thread by Sister Golden Hair
As a loyal Browns fan I couldn't let that slide, those are fighting words. Meet me in the NFL thread in GMs. Down with the Bungles. GO BROWNS!

Seems to me Sister Golden Hair ought to start practicing what she's preaching.

The Gaffer · 10-24-2003, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Did you see in the trailer that Pippin is swearing fealty to him?

I think, and hope, that it's Merry. Though you couldn't blame Jackson for switching them just to annoy everyone.

Back to Theoden's exorcism: in the book this is referred to several times after the event as Gandalf's act of healing or restoration. For this reason I'd always marked the event as being fairly dramatic and important. Not least of the reasons is that we have Gandalf clearly fulfilling his role in Middle-Earth as one who inspires people to greatness.

A low-key rendition of the scene would have failed to convey this.

Draken · 10-24-2003, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
His motivation was just to make a cool fantasy film (which I consider Excalibur to be a thousand times better and far more enjoyable).

Ah Excalibur, I loved that flick! Can we all go to Entertainment and discuss Cheri Lunghi as Guinevere? She made a big impression on an impressionable teenager...

Black Breathalizer · 10-24-2003, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Back to Theoden's exorcism: in the book this is referred to several times after the event as Gandalf's act of healing or restoration. For this reason I'd always marked the event as being fairly dramatic and important. Not least of the reasons is that we have Gandalf clearly fulfilling his role in Middle-Earth as one who inspires people to greatness.

A low-key rendition of the scene would have failed to convey this.

Excellent point, The Gaffer. In fact, Tolkien described the event in a dramatic way (which is why many lines used in this scene for the film are directly from the author.)

I find it shocking that some here never understood when they read the books that Gandalf's staff was used inside the Golden Hall to restore Theoden to his old self.

Elfhelm · 10-24-2003, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gaffer
I think, and hope, that it's Merry. Though you couldn't blame Jackson for switching them just to annoy everyone.

It is Merry. I just watched it again and they also show Pippin with Gandalf in a parallel scene.

I would have checked my books before I posted last night but they are all packed up. I'm moving this weekend.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-24-2003, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Great Jerseydevil fanfiction. Show me in the book where Gandalf describes being led to the top of Orthanc.

It sure seems a tad hypocritical for jerseydevil and his Tolkien "Truth Squad" to be believe they're allowed to make assumptions based on the text but not Peter Jackson. Speaking of hypocritical...

Seems to me Sister Golden Hair ought to start practicing what she's preaching.

Seems to me that you are still off topic. I only replied to already off topic remarks, that you, for one took there. I admitted I was off topic and I also attempted to get the thread back on topic. I suggest you do the same. Do not reply to my remarks here. If you wish to say anymore to me, I suggest a PM.

One more time: Everyone, and that includes myself, stay on topic. One more off topic post regarding anything other than Theoden in the movie, I will close this thread.

hectorberlioz · 10-24-2003, 12:05 PM

In my opinion, Bernard Hill(though he is a very good actor) was overacting as theoden.
"no parent should have to bury his child"

Artanis · 10-24-2003, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
In my opinion, Bernard Hill(though he is a very good actor) was overacting as theoden.
"no parent should have to bury his child"

I liked that scene.

As a parent I can well undestand Theoden's feelings.

Melko Belcha · 10-24-2003, 12:19 PM

Back to Theoden's exorcism, let's see what the book says.

TTT - The King of the Golden Hall
He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth.
In the gloom they heard the hiss of Wormtongue's voice: 'Did I not counsel you, lord, to forbid his staff? That fool, Hama, has betrayed us!' There was a flash as if lightning had cloven the roof. Then all was silent. Wormtongue sprawled on his face.

'Now Theoden, son of Thengel, will you hearken to me?' said Gandalf. 'Do you ask for help?' He lifted his staff and pointed to a high window. There the darkness seemed to clear, and through the opening could be seen, high and far, a patch of shining sky. 'Not all is dark. Take courage, Lord of the Mark; for better help you will not find. No counsel have I to give to those that depair. Yet counsel I could give, and words I could speak to you. Will you hear them? They are not for all ears. I bid you come out before your doors and look abroad. Too long have you sat in shadows and trusted to twisted tales and crooked promptings.'
Slowly Theoden left his chair. A faint light grew in the hall again. The women hastened to the king's side, taking his arm, and with faltering steps the old man came down from the dais and paced softly through the hall. Wormtongue remained lying on the floor. They came to the doors and Gandalf knocked.

The scene in the film is so different then the scene in the book that I can't believe they are supposed to be a part of the same story. Gandalf does use magic in the Golden Hall, but all it really does is shut Grima up and makes Theoden listen to what Gandalf has to say. The scene in the film made me loose the human connection to Theoden, in the book it is his decision to listen to Gandalf, Gandalf used no force against Theoden, well maybe alittle fear, but Theoden gets up by his own will, he goes outside on his own will, with the help of Gandalf Theoden breaks the hold Grima has on him.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 10-24-2003, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
I liked that scene. As a parent I can well undestand Theoden's feelings.

I liked that part too. Very sad. I hate to see a grown man cry.

hectorberlioz · 10-24-2003, 12:25 PM

Sorry Artanis. That scene didnt belong in there. It was very out of place and over done.

Elfhelm · 10-24-2003, 12:43 PM

Regarding MB's post, it goes back to what I was saying about listening to cynical counselors. I think it is an important theme. Olorin moved quietly through the third age counselling leaders and giving them hope. I can't get to my Silmarillion right now, but I am sure this is a scene from LotR that bears out the nature of this Istari. Grima is the ultimate bad counselor. All lovers of medieval lit know about his type. Presented as "posession", the theme is simply not developed. Aragorn always listened to the right counselor. Faramir always did, too.

I still like the movies a lot, but I regret that this theme got lost.

hectorberlioz · 10-24-2003, 12:52 PM

Yes, too bad.
The problem with PJ is that he made the excorcism so "magical" when it wasnt intended(well... it wasnt supposed to be in there inthe first place) to be so magical. Gandalf doesnt fly, he doesnt make a blue power flame spring up out of his staff and kill a lot of people. He shuldnt excorcise people either.
ok, lets not get into the PJ thing again, sorry SGH. My post does have to do with theoden though, so dont close the thread.

squinteyedsoutherner · 10-24-2003, 12:59 PM

"Neither genuine hypnosis, nor variants, occur in my tale. Saruman's voice was not hypnotic but persuasive. Those who listened to him were not in danger of falling into a trance, but of agreeing with his arguments, while fully awake. It was always open to one to reject by free will and reason, both his voice while speaking and it's after impressions. Saruman corrupted the reasoning powers"

J.R.R. Tolkien
from a letter to Forrest J. Ackerman
#210

I think that covers posession. Tolkien's theme is how Saruman's words via Grima have "persuaded" Theoden.

10-24-2003, 12:57 AM	#81
Tuor of Gondolin Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Posts: 1,215	There once was a king named Theoden Long a revered leader of Rohan. He was duped by a Grima But saved by a maia. Then became a leader of men again. __________________ Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva!

10-24-2003, 12:59 AM	#82
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	I mean, go to the Books forum and read the posts there now. I don't mean how many ever. Gee. Why not run those numbers on JD since he's inclined to attack people and call them non-readers? Why not tell us exactly where he has been spending his time here? __________________ cya

10-24-2003, 01:21 AM	#85
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	Okay, back on subject. After a long time of his lies and deciet, Grima Wormtongue has made Theoden blind to logic and what is REALLY going on in the world. In a sense Grima has poisoned Theoden with his lies. __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

10-24-2003, 01:24 AM	#86
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	I suspect that b.banner, the person who started this thread, hasn't read the books yet, either. (How's THAT for a segue?!) Theoden is one of Tolkien's favorite characters, I am certain, because he has a name that means "prince" in anglo-saxon, and that was Tolkien's specialty. The state that he is in as depicted in the movie is a sorry one, and I trust the movie-goers will come to love him. Did you see in the trailer that Pippin is swearing fealty to him? I think you'll all love that scene! __________________ cya

10-24-2003, 12:05 PM	#93
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	In my opinion, Bernard Hill(though he is a very good actor) was overacting as theoden. "no parent should have to bury his child" __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

10-24-2003, 12:19 PM	#95
Melko Belcha Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Behind the Walls of Night Posts: 286	Back to Theoden's exorcism, let's see what the book says. TTT - The King of the Golden Hall He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth. In the gloom they heard the hiss of Wormtongue's voice: 'Did I not counsel you, lord, to forbid his staff? That fool, Hama, has betrayed us!' There was a flash as if lightning had cloven the roof. Then all was silent. Wormtongue sprawled on his face. 'Now Theoden, son of Thengel, will you hearken to me?' said Gandalf. 'Do you ask for help?' He lifted his staff and pointed to a high window. There the darkness seemed to clear, and through the opening could be seen, high and far, a patch of shining sky. 'Not all is dark. Take courage, Lord of the Mark; for better help you will not find. No counsel have I to give to those that depair. Yet counsel I could give, and words I could speak to you. Will you hear them? They are not for all ears. I bid you come out before your doors and look abroad. Too long have you sat in shadows and trusted to twisted tales and crooked promptings.' Slowly Theoden left his chair. A faint light grew in the hall again. The women hastened to the king's side, taking his arm, and with faltering steps the old man came down from the dais and paced softly through the hall. Wormtongue remained lying on the floor. They came to the doors and Gandalf knocked. The scene in the film is so different then the scene in the book that I can't believe they are supposed to be a part of the same story. Gandalf does use magic in the Golden Hall, but all it really does is shut Grima up and makes Theoden listen to what Gandalf has to say. The scene in the film made me loose the human connection to Theoden, in the book it is his decision to listen to Gandalf, Gandalf used no force against Theoden, well maybe alittle fear, but Theoden gets up by his own will, he goes outside on his own will, with the help of Gandalf Theoden breaks the hold Grima has on him. __________________ "....rapturous words from which ultimatley sprang the whole of my mythology" - JRR Tolkien Hail Earendel brightest of angels, over middle-earth sent unto men Crist by Cynewulf (lines 104-5)

10-24-2003, 12:25 PM	#97
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	Sorry Artanis. That scene didnt belong in there. It was very out of place and over done. __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

10-24-2003, 12:43 PM	#98
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	Regarding MB's post, it goes back to what I was saying about listening to cynical counselors. I think it is an important theme. Olorin moved quietly through the third age counselling leaders and giving them hope. I can't get to my Silmarillion right now, but I am sure this is a scene from LotR that bears out the nature of this Istari. Grima is the ultimate bad counselor. All lovers of medieval lit know about his type. Presented as "posession", the theme is simply not developed. Aragorn always listened to the right counselor. Faramir always did, too. I still like the movies a lot, but I regret that this theme got lost. __________________ cya

10-24-2003, 12:52 PM	#99
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	Yes, too bad. The problem with PJ is that he made the excorcism so "magical" when it wasnt intended(well... it wasnt supposed to be in there inthe first place) to be so magical. Gandalf doesnt fly, he doesnt make a blue power flame spring up out of his staff and kill a lot of people. He shuldnt excorcise people either. ok, lets not get into the PJ thing again, sorry SGH. My post does have to do with theoden though, so dont close the thread. __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide Last edited by hectorberlioz : 10-24-2003 at 12:54 PM.

10-24-2003, 12:59 PM	#100
squinteyedsoutherner Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 198	"Neither genuine hypnosis, nor variants, occur in my tale. Saruman's voice was not hypnotic but persuasive. Those who listened to him were not in danger of falling into a trance, but of agreeing with his arguments, while fully awake. It was always open to one to reject by free will and reason, both his voice while speaking and it's after impressions. Saruman corrupted the reasoning powers" J.R.R. Tolkien from a letter to Forrest J. Ackerman #210 I think that covers posession. Tolkien's theme is how Saruman's words via Grima have "persuaded" Theoden.