Gollum Debate

[Wayfarer]

gollum is simply the survivor who does what he needs to do despite what smeagol thinks. and has no remorse.

But it makes no sense to say this.

Smeagol/Gollum didn't act in a way that best furthered his survival. He acted in a way that was malicious and harmful, and resulted in him being shunned by his friends and family, which left him half-starved and alone.

Compare Gollum to Bilbo. Gollum spent several centuries alone in the dark, and miserable, starving. Bilbo, for the half century he had the ring, lived in a warm house, mostly happy and well fed. Who, then, was the better survivor?

[Dreran the Green]

The one with food of course! Mmmmm....food....

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
But it makes no sense to say this.

Smeagol/Gollum didn't act in a way that best furthered his survival. He acted in a way that was malicious and harmful, and resulted in him being shunned by his friends and family, which left him half-starved and alone.

Compare Gollum to Bilbo. Gollum spent several centuries alone in the dark, and miserable, starving. Bilbo, for the half century he had the ring, lived in a warm house, mostly happy and well fed. Who, then, was the better survivor?

but he WANTED to be alone. and gollum allowed him to survive even under what we would call such horrible conditions. but he was fine with it. he would never have wanted to live like bilbo. to be stuck in a house. with pretty flowers around. eating horrible cooked food. dealing with other hobbits. he never could have delt with that. his ideal situation WAS far away in the darkness away from everyone. thats where he could truly relax. probably the same thing would have happened to bildo eventually. look how antsy he was by the time the lord of the rings takes place. he cant stay there anymore. dont think just because he doesnt live like you that he isnt living the way he prefers. your projecting yourself on him and hes not you. its like saying a slug must be miserable because they are always slimy. well come on. the cave was gollums ideal environment. not the sunlight. not the outside world dealing with other people. and yes gollum allowed him to survive that kinda environment better then anyone else could have.

[Ragnarok]

a hero in my book is two things selflessness and sacrifice.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
I think I'm going to get sick.

Why? Do you not believe it, or does the thought merely sicken you?

but he WANTED to be alone.

He did not. He was cast out. If you have to be thrown out, that hardly implies you want to be out.

his ideal situation WAS far away in the darkness away from everyone. thats where he could truly relax.

dont think just because he doesnt live like you that he isnt living the way he prefers. your projecting yourself on him and hes not you.

No, it was made perfectly evident that Smeagol/Gollum was a miserable, twisted, enormously unhappy creature. It is you who are projecting yourself (or rather, your ideal) upon him.

[Elf Girl]

Shakeshpeare was Christian.

[Elfhelm]

As if he had a choice? I'm sure! Let's see? Thumb screws, death on a pyre, or Church of England Protestantism? Hmm... To interpret any writer by virtue of a forced religion in his culture is narrow-minded, but hey, why not?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Sorry, but I mean a REAL Christian, not just someone who claims to be on account of the state religion.

[Psycho Kitty]

He did not. He was cast out. If you have to be thrown out, that hardly implies you want to be out.

but he didn’t just go somewhere else where there were people did he. That would have been the easy thing to do. Or become some kind of wondering homeless nomad ranger type creature like I said before. That would have been the next logical step. No he made his way to isolated places and finally to an underground place where he could be free from the outside world and the horrible sunlight and nasty people who he didn’t like dealing with. So if the only reason he left his people was because he was cast out then why did he actually leave all of civilization behind and seek out complete isolation. He wasn’t thrown out by every little tribe on middle earth. Just one. And its not like he put on the ring and suddenly wanted to be isolated. It took hundreds and hundreds of years to get to the point where we see him.

No, it was made perfectly evident that Smeagol/Gollum was a miserable, twisted, enormously unhappy creature. It is you who are projecting yourself (or rather, your ideal) upon him.

GOLLUM! WE ARE TALKING ABOUT GOLLUM REMEMBER! Not smeagol/gollum. His gollum aspect was NOT enormously unhappy or miserable. YOU are the one projecting again. Assuming because the way he lives looks so nasty and pathetic to you that he must be miserable and unhappy. Well free your mind for a second will you. Every creature is different. Maybe smeagol was sad about his past life and had regrets but GOLLUM didn’t care. Gollum was in his element. Gollum could have lived that way forever. If he had been so so miserable then why spend 500 years living that way! Why not go out and buy a house and plant a garden? And while we are at it why do monkeys live in trees? And wear no clothes? Why don’t they get some common sense and come down from there and start living in houses and wearing little vests and watching TV like the rest of us. What miserable lives they must be living. Get my point?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

No he made his way to isolated places and finally to an underground place where he could be free from the outside world and the horrible sunlight and nasty people who he didn’t like dealing with.

Actually he just wandered around with downcast eyes, hiding them from the Yellow Face. Then when he saw the mountain, he thought it would be cool and dark, and full of secrets, and went there.

GOLLUM! WE ARE TALKING ABOUT GOLLUM REMEMBER! Not smeagol/gollum.

Gollum is not wholly separate from Smeagol; the two are different, to be sure, yet still the same.

YOU are the one projecting again. Assuming because the way he lives looks so nasty and pathetic to you that he must be miserable and unhappy. Well free your mind for a second will you. Every creature is different. Maybe smeagol was sad about his past life and had regrets but GOLLUM didn’t care. Gollum was in his element. Gollum could have lived that way forever. If he had been so so miserable then why spend 500 years living that way!

Nope; again, they are not really separable. Gollum was a SIDE of the creature, but he was not independent, or his own being. Remember, he had to convince Smeagol to betray Frodo.

And while we are at it why do monkeys live in trees? And wear no clothes? Why don’t they get some common sense and come down from there and start living in houses and wearing little vests and watching TV like the rest of us. What miserable lives they must be living. Get my point?

Indeed I do. But I don't think it's a very good one. Monkeys are animals, and cannot really be compared to sentient, evil beings such as Gollum.

[Psycho Kitty]

Actually he just wandered around with downcast eyes, hiding them from the Yellow Face. Then when he saw the mountain, he thought it would be cool and dark, and full of secrets, and went there.

but your point was that he only left civilization behind because he was thrown out of his tribe by force. My point was that he was seeking something more ideal for him. This supports my point.

Gollum is not wholly separate from Smeagol; the two are different, to be sure, yet still the same.

they dwell in the same body ya. But for our purposes here we are talking about the gollum aspect of the smeagol/gollum creature.

Nope; again, they are not really separable. Gollum was a SIDE of the creature, but he was not independent, or his own being. Remember, he had to convince Smeagol to betray Frodo.

god… ok think of it like a siamese twin or something. Sure they are attached. They can even share the same heart and the same brain. But they can have different personalities and disagree on things. One can be assertive and one can be passive. This is normal.

Indeed I do. But I don't think it's a very good one. Monkeys are animals, and cannot really be compared to sentient, evil beings such as Gollum.

but gollum is the ANIMAL aspect. The survival part of the smeagol/gollum creature. We have that in all of us only its kept in check more by the human part of us. but we are all animals anyway.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

"More ideal" for him, I agree with, but to say that he turned his back on civilization, I do not.

Yes, but there is an entirely different matter between two different people born who were physically attached, and the case with Smeagol and Gollum. Siamese twins are attached. Smeagol and Gollum are within the same body. And Gollum originated from Smeagol's mind.

but gollum is the ANIMAL aspect. The survival part of the smeagol/gollum creature. We have that in all of us only its kept in check more by the human part of us. but we are all animals anyway.

No, Gollum is the corrupted, evil aspect. He is the part of Smeagol/Gollum which is taken over by the Ring, and given over to Evil. As to whether or not we are animals or not, that is an entirely different debate. Suffice it to say that many do not believe this, and indeed according to many who strongly ascribe to evolutionary theory, we are immensely more evolved than other animals, and cannot really be compared to them.

[Elfhelm]

And certainly Tolkien didn't believe we are animals. He, like so many, had that species superiority complex that has allowed us to consume an entire planet without even the slightest pangs of guilt. When the maiar who care about the animals and especially the trees complained to Eru about this, Eru just said, basically, too bad. But the Ents, pitiful in the long run, were created to defend it. It didn't help much in the end, did it?

So, since Tolkien didn't ascribe to evolutionary theory, you have to admit that it's a highly personal interpretation to put the theme of The Sea Wolf onto Gollum's character.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Suffice it to say that many do not believe this, and indeed according to many who strongly ascribe to evolutionary theory, we are immensely more evolved than other animals, and cannot really be compared to them.

gwaimir are we speaking for the evolutionists again?

Evolution hasnt lead to man. evolution is not simply a grading scale in which we are the standard to judge by. man is just one small flicker of flame that helps to comprise this gigantic chemical reaction we call LIFE.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Gollum originated from Smeagol's mind.

I would take that even further and say that the Ring acted on Smeagol's mind, and the result was Gollum.

Gollum was not happy; he was incapable of happiness. He was miserable in all senses of the word. It is true that he did not want to live within any kind of society; the ring had unfortunately robbed him of that ability and desire. The best we can say about him is that he had attained a kind of contentment in his underground cavern, and although it was by the ring that he was kept alive, he seems not to mind (being alive, that is). That is the best we can say about his state of life enjoyment. The only time he experiences joy is when he is able to exert some form of control (catching a fish, for instance). He also does experience some satisfaction when he proves himself helpful to Frodo. It is still Gollum -- he is simply working within the universal social code as he remembers it form his days as Smeagol. His goal is still always to eventually get the Ring, though.

Gollum and Smeagol are inseparable. So although Gollum desired to eat Bilbo, that small part of him from his past ("Smeagol") is happy to see him, and that is why he insists on the riddle contest. That small part of him misses having another being with whom to tell riddles (akin to his relative contentment when he is accompanying Frodo). Yes, he plans to eat him anyway, which means to me that it is still Gollum who is "at the helm" here so to speak. They are one and the same, but Gollum allows the Smeagol part to surface, probably a very painful thing for him to do, because it reminds him of "things" and causes him to come too close to being cognizant of what he was and how the choice he made so long ago has caused his current state of being. One cannot just wave away arguments with "Oh, that was Smeagol doing that." Smeagol no longer exists, but Gollum remembers Smeagol, and allows himself to become Smeagolish for a while when he is interacting with hobbits. That's my take on it.

[cassiopeia]

I found an interesting quote from the Letters of JRR Tolkien that, I believe, pertains to this discussion:

...I think he [Gollum] would have sacrificed himself for Frodo's sake, and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss.

Now, surely this shows Gollum cares for Frodo, at the very least. He shows compassion, and as far as I am aware, animals don't feel that way. Wouldn't the instinctive thing for Gollum to do would be to take the Ring and push Frodo into Mount Doom? Tolkien certainly didn't think so.

[Sheeana]

This thread goes into some detail on Gollum's ability to destroy the ring, and consequently save Frodo if he'd had time.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
gwaimir are we speaking for the evolutionists again?

Well, a number of the evolutionists tha tI have known believed that mankind is above animals.

You really do hate him, don't you, Elfhelm? You seem to be blatantly choosing to ignore the fact that Tolkien was very much an environmentalist. Either that, or using an opening to do some "proselytising" of your own.

[Elfhelm]

Nope, I just hate dead metaphors. I don't mind old guys from antiquated times having outmoded ideas. I just can't stomach the species superiority complex persisting in the face of overwhelming evidence. I think it's forgivable for Tolkien to be old-fashioned, of course. But it's not forgivable for modern people to hide behind the authority of ancients who had less data.

[Psycho Kitty]

You know I really think you should have included the few sentences before that quote rather then snipping them off.

Though the love would have been strengthened daily it could not have wrested the mastery from the Ring. I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum [meaning gollum/smeagol] would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both. Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale). But ‘possession’ satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo’s sake and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss.

so basically Tolkien points out there that IF things had been different and gollum had taken the ring successfully that the gollum portion of him would be satisfied but the non ANIMAL smeagol portion of him that Frodo had reawakened with his kindness and trust would have struggled against him to do the right thing and destroy the ring anyway. So the gollum side would have LOST in the end which would have been like a redemption after all those years for the NON ANIMAL smeagol side. He would have made the ultimate sacrifice DESPITE his animal instincts to survive. Smeagol would have realized now its too late. We are in mordor and sauron is aware of us and one way or the other he will get the ring so either die now for master or die later at the hands of cruel sauron. So despicable love WOULD HAVE over come pure animal in the end which makes sense because Tolkien was all about good and evil always being in a constant struggle against each other. But if we can start making what ifs about the end then we can do the same about the beginning and in MY world bilbo would never have found gollum to begin with and love would never have ruined everything…

hey maybe we should start a thread about what would happen if gollum had never run into bilbo. How would middle earth be different because this thread aint workin. Youre not gonna get me to think oh gollum ISNT appealing gee I guess your right. How dumb of me to be so open minded and have my own interpretation on this. Whats wrong with me. Follow the crowd and shut up psycho kitty.

Well sorry. He will always be my favorite character and I will always find a deep appeal in him. He rejects so many of the things I reject and desires so many of the strange things I desire and that everybody else seems to think are unappealing. So banish me from society please. And take away my sickening humanity and make me animal. Give me dark blinding isolation. Forever.