The best Swordsman? - Page 5

Aragorn_iz_cool · 06-07-2003, 07:37 PM

Sam beat Shelob.

Gwaimir Windgem · 06-07-2003, 07:58 PM

I think that had more to do with his fierce loyalty to Frodo, and the divine (or angelic) intervention of Elbereth than with his skill.

***azalea*** · 06-07-2003, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aragorn_iz_cool
Sam beat Shelob.

I knew you were going to say that!
Okay then, what if I put forth the notion that Boromir could have killed Shelob, too? Anyone agree with that?

LutraMage · 06-08-2003, 12:38 PM

The truth is they could all have killed Shelob (including Merry and Pippin)! But Shelob would have tried to hide from the Warrior's with bright swords - she only attacked Frodo and Sam because she thought they were easy prey.

Sam's success with Shelob does not justify him being ranked a better swordsman than Boromir. Against any significant swordsman his short hight and equally short sword would have been too much of a handicap. That doesn't mean Sam couldn't have been a valiant warrior (he played his part in the Battle of Bywater) but he wouldn't have been counted amongst the great swordsman of the Age, unlike Boromir, Captain of Gondor and Heir to the Steward.

Elvengirl · 06-08-2003, 02:00 PM

How could just anyone kill Shelob? She's an evil creature that's been around since the first age. She's devoured both Men and Elves. I seem to remember that none could rival her and none could ever escape her web.

But, because Sam killed her, I wouln't necessarily rank him as the best.

I'd say Aragorn.

LutraMage · 06-09-2003, 03:31 AM

Quote:

How could just anyone kill Shelob? She's an evil creature that's been around since the first age. She's devoured both Men and Elves. I seem to remember that none could rival her and none could ever escape her web.

Ah no, Elvengirl, I didn't say "anyone could kill Shelob", I said "they could all have killed Shelob" meaning those we are ranking as top swordsman (Aragorn, Boromir, Faramir or Eomer) and those who we have been adding to the list (heros of the First Age, Members of the Fellowship and Eowyn).

Unless you think there is one of these who could not have killed Shelob if they had to?

Other, lesser warriors might have got lucky, but we all agree Shelob was a vicious and nasty opponent and most would have perished with their veins full of her venom

Radagast The Brown · 06-09-2003, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elvengirl
How could just anyone kill Shelob? She's an evil creature that's been around since the first age. She's devoured both Men and Elves. I seem to remember that none could rival her and none could ever escape her web.

But, because Sam killed her, I wouln't necessarily rank him as the best.

I'd say Aragorn.

Sam is not the best swordman just becuase he killed Shelob. You have to practice a lot if you want to be a great swordman. Shelob? I didn't think she was that strong, though she was the last of Ungoliant's borns (pretty impresive. But she wasn't Ungoliant, and I'm sure she was much weaker if Sam wounded her). I think Boromir could've beat Sam easily - it's obvious he's a better swordman.

Gwaimir Windgem · 06-09-2003, 04:45 PM

I don't think that the fact that Sam beat Shelob had anything to do with how powerful she was. It seemed to me that Samwise had Elbereth on his side, and She helped him to defeat Shelob.

Aragorn_iz_cool · 06-09-2003, 05:59 PM

Alright, so myebe Boromir WAS better swordsman then Sam, but he wasn't as good as Imrahil, Eomer, Aragorn, Eowyn, or Faramir.

Rosie Gamgee · 06-09-2003, 06:08 PM

Then you have to remember that it wasn't Sam's strength that got Shelob in the end- it was her own:

"But Shelob was not as dragons are, no softer spot had she save only her eyes. Knobbed and pitted with corruption was her age-old hide, but ever thickened from within with layer on layer of evil growth. The blade scored it with a dreadful gash, but those hideous folds could not be pierced by any strength of men, not though Elf of Dwarf should forge the steel or the hand of Beren or of Turin wield it. . . . and so Shelob, with the driving force of her cruel will, with strength greater than any warrior's hand, thrust herself upon a bitter spike."

So I don't think swordsmanship really had anything to do with winning that fight.

Gwaimir Windgem · 06-09-2003, 06:46 PM

A very good point, and well-made, Rosie.

So it was in actuality that SHELOB was on Sam's side...from a certain point of view.

Elvengirl · 06-09-2003, 07:44 PM

Very true Rosie and Sam had the advantage of sizer to get under her.

Quote:

Originally posted by LutraMage
Unless you think there is one of these who could not have killed Shelob if they had to?

If there was a match between even the best swordsman and Shelob, I'm not even sure that he could beat her. I think it would be a pretty close match, but then as Rosie pointed out it wasn't skill with the sword that defeated her. I'd say Shelob would have the advantage.

LutraMage · 06-10-2003, 11:56 AM

Quote from Elvengirl

Quote:

If there was a match between even the best swordsman and Shelob, I'm not even sure that he could beat her. I think it would be a pretty close match, but then as Rosie pointed out it wasn't skill with the sword that defeated her. I'd say Shelob would have the advantage.

Good point, well made - I guess we can agree that Sam, due to his height, courage and love of Frodo was uniquely placed to kill Shelob, and that the others might well not have been able to kill her without great luck no matter how strong they were or how good a swordsman, but that Sam's fateful meeting with this evil creature does not reflect any particular skill as a swordsman on his behalf. Is that okay with you?

Radagast The Brown · 06-10-2003, 03:21 PM

Quote:

originalluy posted by GW
A very good point, and well-made, Rosie. So it was in actuality that SHELOB was on Sam's side...from a certain point of view.

I knew that.

Quote:

originally posted by A iz C
Alright, so myebe Boromir WAS better swordsman then Sam, but he wasn't as good as Imrahil, Eomer, Aragorn, Eowyn, or Faramir.

You mean that Boromir is not as good swordman as Eomer, Eowyn, etc.?

Elvengirl · 06-10-2003, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LutraMage
Quote from Elvengirl

Good point, well made - I guess we can agree that Sam, due to his height, courage and love of Frodo was uniquely placed to kill Shelob, and that the others might well not have been able to kill her without great luck no matter how strong they were or how good a swordsman, but that Sam's fateful meeting with this evil creature does not reflect any particular skill as a swordsman on his behalf. Is that okay with you?

I completely agree

Gwaimir Windgem · 06-10-2003, 10:06 PM

Don't forget the Elvish invocation, where he uttered words he knew not. And of course, probably the deciding factor was Shelob's own terrible strength, and grotesque weight.

Elvengirl · 06-10-2003, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Don't forget the Elvish invocation, where he uttered words he knew not. And of course, probably the deciding factor was Shelob's own terrible strength, and grotesque weight.

Oh, of course, I had that in mind the whole time

LutraMage · 06-11-2003, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elvengirl
Oh, of course, I had that in mind the whole time

Me too, honest!

06-07-2003, 07:58 PM	#82
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	I think that had more to do with his fierce loyalty to Frodo, and the divine (or angelic) intervention of Elbereth than with his skill. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

06-08-2003, 12:38 PM	#84
LutraMage Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Tolkien's England where the tale grew in the telling... Posts: 330	The truth is they could all have killed Shelob (including Merry and Pippin)! But Shelob would have tried to hide from the Warrior's with bright swords - she only attacked Frodo and Sam because she thought they were easy prey. Sam's success with Shelob does not justify him being ranked a better swordsman than Boromir. Against any significant swordsman his short hight and equally short sword would have been too much of a handicap. That doesn't mean Sam couldn't have been a valiant warrior (he played his part in the Battle of Bywater) but he wouldn't have been counted amongst the great swordsman of the Age, unlike Boromir, Captain of Gondor and Heir to the Steward. __________________ "Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so, with Pity." "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." "Very well,' he answered aloud, lowering his sword. 'But still I am afraid. And yet, as you see, I will not touch the creature. For now that I see him, I do pity him."

06-08-2003, 02:00 PM	#85
Elvengirl Mirthful Maiden Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Rivendell Posts: 1,252	How could just anyone kill Shelob? She's an evil creature that's been around since the first age. She's devoured both Men and Elves. I seem to remember that none could rival her and none could ever escape her web. But, because Sam killed her, I wouln't necessarily rank him as the best. I'd say Aragorn. __________________ The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men.~ J.R.R. Tolkien Wanna play? www.thievesguild.com

06-09-2003, 04:45 PM	#88
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	I don't think that the fact that Sam beat Shelob had anything to do with how powerful she was. It seemed to me that Samwise had Elbereth on his side, and She helped him to defeat Shelob. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

06-09-2003, 06:08 PM	#90
Rosie Gamgee The Lovely Hobbit-Lass Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bounded in a nut-shell Posts: 1,593	Then you have to remember that it wasn't Sam's strength that got Shelob in the end- it was her own: "But Shelob was not as dragons are, no softer spot had she save only her eyes. Knobbed and pitted with corruption was her age-old hide, but ever thickened from within with layer on layer of evil growth. The blade scored it with a dreadful gash, but those hideous folds could not be pierced by any strength of men, not though Elf of Dwarf should forge the steel or the hand of Beren or of Turin wield it. . . . and so Shelob, with the driving force of her cruel will, with strength greater than any warrior's hand, thrust herself upon a bitter spike." So I don't think swordsmanship really had anything to do with winning that fight. __________________ It's New Years Day, just like the day before; Same old skies of grey, same empty bottles on the floor. Another year's gone by, and I was thinking once again, How can I take this losing hand and somehow win? Just give me One Good Year To get my feet back on the ground. I've been chasing grace; Grace ain't so easily found One bad hand can devil a man, chase him and carry him down. I've got to get out of here, just give me One Good Year!

06-07-2003, 07:37 PM	#81
Aragorn_iz_cool Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New Jersey Posts: 119	Sam beat Shelob.

06-09-2003, 05:59 PM	#89
Aragorn_iz_cool Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New Jersey Posts: 119	Alright, so myebe Boromir WAS better swordsman then Sam, but he wasn't as good as Imrahil, Eomer, Aragorn, Eowyn, or Faramir.

06-09-2003, 06:46 PM	#91
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	A very good point, and well-made, Rosie. So it was in actuality that SHELOB was on Sam's side...from a certain point of view. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

06-10-2003, 10:06 PM	#96
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Don't forget the Elvish invocation, where he uttered words he knew not. And of course, probably the deciding factor was Shelob's own terrible strength, and grotesque weight. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

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