The Eye of Sauron

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Olmer

She is not just the most knowledgable concerning all Tolkien's work, but she also has the most creative imagination and a very inquisitive mind, which leads her to stunning hypotheses.
Reading her posts is always a discovery.

You're right, Olmer. Actually I think there might (maybe?, possibly?) be some others who can match Gordis's knowledge of the texts (that sure isn't me though ). But when it comes to combining that knowledge with, as you say, a "creative imagination and a very inquistive mind", to read between the lines and see something that is new yet was always there, here Gordis has no peer. She is the best Tolkien's world poster on this site. No question.

[Gordis]

Oh you flatterers...

[Earniel]

The truth must be said some time, Gordis. You see a lot of connections that none of us thought of before. And while I don't always end up agreeing with you, your threads are always interesting discussions. And you have an incredibly memory concerning Tolkien's works. I see no shame in admitting mine does simply not compare.

*is also member of the Gordis admiration society*

The brief glow fell upon a huge sitting figure, still and solemn as the stone kings of Argonath. The years had gnawed it, and violent hands had maimed it. Its head was gone, and in it's place was set in mockery a round rough-hewn stone, rudely painted by savage hands in the likeness of a grinning face with one large red eye in the midst of its forehead.

An interesting find. It leaves the discussion still somewhat open, though. Is it Sauron they're trying to depict? Or just put the Eye where the head should have been as a sort of stamp of conquest?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

*is also member of the Gordis admiration society*

You too B... Earniel! If you continue, one of these days I will ask you to change my title to "the Sublime" or "the Admirable" or something as silly as that. Anyway, thank you. I indeed try to read between the lines and am most interested not in what Tolkien said, but in what he didn''t say.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

*An interesting find. It leaves the discussion still somewhat open, though. Is it Sauron they're trying to depict? Or just put the Eye where the head should have been as a sort of stamp of conquest?

Reminds me of the severed heads they flung over the walls of Minas Tirith. All were branded with the Eye.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Reminds me of the severed heads they flung over the walls of Minas Tirith. All were branded with the Eye.

Well, even if you do receive the title "The Admirable", I must disagree with you here, and also with the rather admirable Earniel.

If the eye was simply a symbol then the Orcs could have, probably much more easily, placed it anywhere on the statue. Instead they took the time to remove the head and replace it with one with the eye symbol exactly where it would have been expected to be if it was a real, single eye. There was a mouth drawn underneath it. There was a body further down still. This was an eye on a face.

The Orcs' intentions are clear to me. They were attempting to portray (very simply) Sauron. However, I agree with Earniel that the discussion is still left open. The question I would ask is: Can we be sure the Orcs knew what Sauron looked like, or may they (like us, possibly) have been confusing a symbol with physical reality? I doubt too many Orcs actually met with Sauron. Another question might be: Did Sauron really not have a nose? Maybe he didn't need one. Look at all these nose-free smilies.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by CAB

If the eye was simply a symbol then the Orcs could have, probably much more easily, placed it anywhere on the statue. Instead they took the time to remove the head and replace it with one with the eye symbol exactly where it would have been expected to be if it was a real, single eye. There was a mouth drawn underneath it. There was a body further down still. This was an eye on a face.

I'm still not quite convinced. I don't think the orcs thought much of knocking off the king's head, in fact I'm pretty sure that's the first thing they did when they reached the crossroads. Getting a rough rock on top of the statue is indeed be less straight-forward action, but if the orcs were stationed for a while at the crossroads, or camped there, this sounds like this is something they'd do for fun and to pass the time. Knocking the old king's head off is good, making a complete mockery of the statue by putting on a phony head, strikes me as something that would provide even more fun for the orcs. Orcs seldom stopped at mere destruction if they could not defile and mock things as well. But I don't think the orcs worshipped Sauron's person so much that they'd put his face on the rock of the statue. I think that instead they opted for just the red eye, the symbol that not only stood for Sauron, his power, but the whole of Mordor, and therefore also the Mordor-orcs.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I'm still not quite convinced. I don't think the orcs thought much of knocking off the king's head, in fact I'm pretty sure that's the first thing they did when they reached the crossroads. Getting a rough rock on top of the statue is indeed be less straight-forward action, but if the orcs were stationed for a while at the crossroads, or camped there, this sounds like this is something they'd do for fun and to pass the time. Knocking the old king's head off is good, making a complete mockery of the statue by putting on a phony head, strikes me as something that would provide even more fun for the orcs. Orcs seldom stopped at mere destruction if they could not defile and mock things as well. But I don't think the orcs worshipped Sauron's person so much that they'd put his face on the rock of the statue. I think that instead they opted for just the red eye, the symbol that not only stood for Sauron, his power, but the whole of Mordor, and therefore also the Mordor-orcs.

Mhm I'm agreeing with Eärniel here.

I have sincere doubts as to any Orc ever actually meeting Sauron. Why would Sauron lower himself to meeting (and thus acknowledging some sort of standing for orcs) the mangled, twisted dirt that were the orcs? I much rather think that it was either Nazgul, the mouth of Sauron, or, more realistically Men of darkness (most likely of the East and South lands) whom conveyed to the orcs whatever orders Sauron would like carry out. A chain of command in other words.

As for their understanding of the Eye; the symbolism at least is there. In Book VI of The Return of the King (when Frodo and Sam have just left the Tower of Cirith Ungol) Tolkien even writes "the Eye of Mordor". Sorry I don't have the book here now but I'll be happy to provide a quote later.

I still think there's an ever-watchful eye on the top of Barad-dûr. In terms of presence in the lands of Mordor it is very likely isn't it. It wouldn't be the actual manifestation of Sauron, but only an instrument of vision and to spread fear, dread and darkness.

[Attalus]

I certainly agree that it would be highly unlikely that lowly border-guard Orc could ever have seen Sauron physically, or even known anyone who did.

Those who pass the gates of Barad-Dur do not return.

The point about a floating eyeball not needing a road, not to mention an Age to regenerate is cogent, here, I think. As I have posted before, the Unlidded Eye is at once a synecdoche and a symbol of Sauron's vigilance and his claims to omniscience, which we know is risible: the Ring would never have been lost for so long else, much less lie hidden in the Shire.
I think it is a constant theme, though a subtle one, in the LotR, that even the Wise consistently overestimate Sauron's power, knowledge, and wisdom; it also seems, to me at least, that they overestimate the power of the Nine and, it seems a corollary, the Ring itself. If the Ring actually "drew" the Nazgul to it, it would have been found right away, unless we grant some distance/power ratio that is totally out of keeping with the presentation of Magic in Middle-earth: Saruman's voice is *always* urging his servants and those that fall under his spell, and the Witch-King seems to be able to communicate with Sauron at all times. Lothlorien is the only instance I can think of where there is a physical limitation on Magic, though Minas Ithil might be urged.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

I agree most orcs probaly never saw Sauron but there had to be some who did. What about the ones present when Gollum was being questioned? Did he have the room cleared before he spoke to him? Granted he might have been shrouded in something. I don't know. I always thought of Sauron as a narcicsitic ruler. Even after he could no longer take a pleasant form. Is there any mention of him being this way?

Originally Posted by Attalus

If the Ring actually "drew" the Nazgul to it, it would have been found right away, unless we grant some distance/power ratio that is totally out of keeping with the presentation of Magic in Middle-earth: Saruman's voice is *always* urging his servants and those that fall under his spell, and the Witch-King seems to be able to communicate with Sauron at all times.

I thought the Nazgul were only drawn to it when it was being used. I always thought of Saruman's voice as his 'ring of power' and Sauron did have the Witch-King's ring which probably gave him some sort of mental connection.

[Attalus]

I have these objections:

1. I wrote of "ordinary, border-guard orcs." The ones, if they were orcs at all, that questioned Gollum were obviously high in the service of Sauron, with some measure of trust, or they would not have been allowed to be present at such a sensitive questioning. Sauron would not want the matter of his Ring to be the subject of idle gossip.

2. Sauron, like all evil creatures, was totally egocentric.

3. Sauron also held the Rings of the rest of the Nine, but he apparently only communicated directly with the Witch-King, and it was to him that the lesser Nazgul came for orders.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

3. Sauron also held the Rings of the rest of the Nine, but he apparently only communicated directly with the Witch-King, and it was to him that the lesser Nazgul came for orders.

the Witch-King seems to be able to communicate with Sauron at all times

What exactly do you mean, Attalus? A direct mental communication at a distance? What proofs do you have?

[Attalus]

It's not canonical, but in "The Hunt for the Ring," the other Nazgul are told by the W-K of Sauron's growing wrath. Sorry, I don't have my books with me, but I will post a quote this afternoon or tomorrow.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Attalus

It's not canonical, but in "The Hunt for the Ring," the other Nazgul are told by the W-K of Sauron's growing wrath.

What “Hunt for the Ring� says is,

[In] July [3018, the seven Nazgûl from Mordor] met ... the Nazgûl of Dol Guldur in the Field of Celebrant. … They were told … that no ... Halflings could be discovered in the Vales of Anduin… But the Lord of Morgul, seeing no better counsel, determined still to seek northward, hoping ... to [find] Gollum as well as ... the Shire. That this would prove to be not far from ... Lórien seemed to him not unlikely... Passing … between Lórien and the Mountains the Nine rode ... into the North … but they did not find what they sought nor learn any news...

…When they came back to the Wold September had come; and there they met messengers from Barad-dûr conveying threats from their Master that filled even the Morgul-lord with dismay.

So the Witch-king led them into the Vales of Anduin and further north, and altogether they met the messengers from Mordor on their return south. From the context, it seems messengers spoke to them in the normal fashion of Men or Orcs to convey Sauron’s displeasure.

I elided it from the citation, but the text also indicates that Sauron was unhappy because he wanted to redirect them from their chosen search area between the forest and the mountains. When he could not contact them, he became enraged. Had Sauron some telepathic means of communication, the messengers would have been unnecessary, and his rage would have been superfluous.

(I wonder what could have frightened the Witch-king?)

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

What “Hunt for the Ring� says is, So the Witch-king led them into the Vales of Anduin and further north, and altogether they met the messengers from Mordor on their return south. From the context, it seems messengers spoke to them in the normal fashion of Men or Orcs to convey Sauron’s displeasure.

I elided it from the citation, but the text also indicates that Sauron was unhappy because he wanted to redirect them from their chosen search area between the forest and the mountains. When he could not contact them, he became enraged. Had Sauron some telepathic means of communication, the messengers would have been unnecessary, and his rage would have been superfluous.

Exactly. The example above proves that a direct Osanwe contact between Sauron and the nazgul was limited by distance.

It worked from Barad-Dur to Morannon (that's how Sauron sent the Nazgul to Orodruin when the Ring was about to be destroyed), it worked from Minas Morgul to Barad Dur (remember the orc talk about the Nazgul sending instant messages to the Eye), but (as shown above by Alcuin) it already didn't work from Barad Dur to Rohan.

We can deduce that the distance Barad Dur - Isengard was also too big for Osanwe contact: when Pippin looked in the Stone, Sauron had one of his nazgul very close to the spot (the one who flew over the camp of Dol Baran), yet he had to send another nazgul all the way from Barad Dur to investigate the case. Cleraly, he had no means to contact the first one by Osanwe to give him new orders.

Likely the Osanwe contact already didn't work from Barad Dur to Pelennor (the messages were relayed by flying nazgul observed by Frodo and Sam).

(I wonder what could have frightened the Witch-king?)

Doing something to his Ring, perhaps? Frying it maybe?

I wonder what sort of messengers did Sauron send to convey his displeasure to the nazgul? Someone expendable, like the orcs? Or someone in high position who could hope to return unmolested, like the Mouth?

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Doing something to his Ring, perhaps? Frying it maybe?

Voodoo Nazgûl? Hot irons? (They didn’t like fire: it hurt!)

Originally Posted by Gordis

I wonder what sort of messengers did Sauron send to convey his displeasure to the nazgul? Someone expendable, like the orcs? Or someone in high position who could hope to return unmolested, like the Mouth?

The Mouth seems like a particularly valuable person to use as a messenger, but perhaps Sauron was unafraid that, perhaps with a strong escort, he would be molested by his master’s enemies. Moreover, the Mouth would probably have derived considerable pleasure and delight in delivering Sauron’s missive - and especially in frightening the Nazgûl!

Originally Posted by Gordis

The example above proves that a direct Osanwe contact between Sauron and the nazgul was limited by distance.

Why do you believe Sauron used ósanwe-kenta to communicate with the Nazgûl? (Did I miss something in the thread?)

Communication through the palantÃ*ri was by means of the palantÃ*ri as devices; ósanwe-kenta is either a power or technique of individuals, much akin to verbal speech. Using a palantÃ*r might allow a novice, like Pippin to engage in ósanwe-kenta or something akin to it, but it was by the power of the device that he could communicate, however it was accomplished. Ósanwe-kenta seems to me to have been learned like normal, verbal speech.

Is there an instance in the literature in which Sauron clearly engages in ósanwe-kenta with one of his servants? It seems to me that Aragorn, a Man, engages in a limited form of it with the Mouth of Sauron, who recoils from him; and Faramir may also use a primitive form of it against Gollum, who falls to the ground, groveling; but the only clear evidence of ósanwe-kenta is the conversation that Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn and Gandalf hold with one another while everyone sleeps the night at the border of Eregion the night before they part company and Galadriel and Celeborn go back over the Redhorn Gate to Lórien.

I have no doubt that Sauron could use ósanwe-kenta: I just haven’t read anything about it.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Voodoo Nazgûl? Hot irons? (They didn’t like fire: it hurt!)

I believe fire was certainly somehow involved.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The Mouth seems like a particularly valuable person to use as a messenger, but perhaps Sauron was unafraid that, perhaps with a strong escort, he would be molested by his master’s enemies. Moreover, the Mouth would probably have derived considerable pleasure and delight in delivering Sauron’s missive - and especially in frightening the Nazgûl!

Edit: I meant not the danger from enemies, but that the upset Nazgul would certainly feel tempted to chop off the Messenger's head.

Why is it that almost everybody suspects animosity between the Mouth and the Nazgul?
When long ago I thought of writing a fanfic about this meeting on the Anduin, I imagined just that: the Mouth frightened, but taking vicious delight in delivering Sauron’s missive. I thought it was my own very original idea. But since then, I have read several fics and in all of them the Mouth hates and envies the Nazgul.
BTW, here is a wonderful (and very unusual) portrait of the Mouth:The Mouth of Sauron by Tamling

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Why do you believe Sauron used ósanwe-kenta to communicate with the Nazgûl? (Did I miss something in the thread?)

And what else could he use? Sure the term is one of the late inventions of Tolkien, but this sort of communication is very much present in LOTR. Apart from what you have cited, I add some new examples below.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Is there an instance in the literature in which Sauron clearly engages in ósanwe-kenta with one of his servants?

Sauron ordering the Nazgul to fly to Orodruin."But the Nazgûl turned and fled, and vanished into Mordor’s shadows, hearing a sudden terrible call out of the Dark Tower". I doubt that was a vocal sound, audible to everyone.

Also the messages going between Minas Morgul and Barad Dur:

`No, I don't know,' said Gorbag's voice. `The messages go through quicker than anything could fly, as a rule. But I don't enquire how it's done. Safest not to. Grr! Those Nazgûl give me the creeps." [...]
"And then they couldn't get Lugbúrz to pay attention for a good while, I'm told.'

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Communication through the palantÃ*ri was by means of the palantÃ*ri as devices; ósanwe-kenta is either a power or technique of individuals, much akin to verbal speech. Using a palantÃ*r might allow a novice, like Pippin to engage in ósanwe-kenta or something akin to it, but it was by the power of the device that he could communicate, however it was accomplished. Ósanwe-kenta seems to me to have been learned like normal, verbal speech.

Sure, to use Osanwe-kenta at a distance, some sort of connection had to be established: either a palantir-palantir contact, or Ring-Ring contact, or some other.
The example of Ring-Ring contact would be the Mirdain wearing Rings who heard Sauron's spell all the way from Orodruin in SA 1600. IMO, Frodo and Gandalf were able to communicate when Frodo wore the Ring at Amon Hen and Gandalf sat on the slopes of Methedras (IIRC), only because both wore the Rings: it was a contact of Narya with the Ruling Ring. Sauron at Barad Dur heard Frodo claiming the One at the cracks of Doom because Sauron had 12 rings in his possession.
The link between the ringless Ringwraiths and Sauron, who had the Nine Rings in his possession, also existed, but it seemed to be far weaker (as to enabling Osanwe) than the normal ring-ring contact.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

What “Hunt for the Ring� says is, So the Witch-king led them into the Vales of Anduin and further north, and altogether they met the messengers from Mordor on their return south. From the context, it seems messengers spoke to them in the normal fashion of Men or Orcs to convey Sauron’s displeasure.

I elided it from the citation, but the text also indicates that Sauron was unhappy because he wanted to redirect them from their chosen search area between the forest and the mountains. When he could not contact them, he became enraged. Had Sauron some telepathic means of communication, the messengers would have been unnecessary, and his rage would have been superfluous.

(I wonder what could have frightened the Witch-king?)

Ah, I remembered it wrong. I appreciate the correction.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Ah, I remembered it wrong. I appreciate the correction.

We all misremember from time to time. As long as there’s no quiz at the end of class, we’re ok.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Was it indeed merely the distance that daunted the communication? Or could the fact that contact had to cross one of the great waterways (the Anduin) have been a factor also?

I don't think Sauron's form of ósanwe-kenta would be the exact same "technology" (for lack of a better term at the moment) as that used by Gandalf-Galadriel-Elrond, though it may have been based on similar principles. Like Morgoth, he couldn't create, only copy and twist, and so his evil brand of ósanwe-kenta could very well have had impediments that the purer form did not possess. In fact, I could imagine (and I confess I'm imagining much of this) that the purer ósanwe-kenta might be enhanced by the presence of water while the evil ósanwe-kenta was impeded by it.

Why was Sauron reluctant to allow the Nazgul to cross the Anduin in The Two Towers? I can imagine he was thinking, "I'm not letting you buggers out of com-range again until absolutely necessary."

Any thoughts pro or con?

[Alcuin]

The seven Nazgûl from Mordor first crossed Anduin in an assault on the bridge at Osgiliath in 3018 to commence the Hunt for the Ring. The attack on the bridges meant that the soldiers of Gondor paid less attention to the horror of the “unclothed� Nazgûl crossing the bridge than they would otherwise, so that the Ringwraiths slipped past them unnoticed. In 3019, in the Two Towers, Sauron withheld the flying Nazgûl from crossing the River because he wanted their appearance to coincide with the commencement of the war.

I happen to be re-reading Lord of the Rings right now, and this afternoon, I read the conversation between Gorbag and Shagrat that Sam overheard in the Under-way, the orcs’ tunnel from Torech Ungol to their Undergate in the Tower of Cirith Ungol. Gorbag tells Shagrat,

The messages go through quicker than anything could fly, as a rule. But I don’t enquire how it’s done. Safest not to.

They are discussing messages between Lugbúrz (Barad-dûr) and Minas Morgul. Then later on, Gorbag says,

…our Silent Watchers were uneasy more than two days ago… But my patrol wasn't ordered out for another day, nor any message sent to Lugbúrz either: owing to the Great Signal going up, and the High Nazgûl going off to the war, and all that. And then they couldn’t get Lugbúrz to pay attention for a good while, I’m told.

The implication is that there is some sort of communication system between Minas Morgul and Barad-dûr, not ósanwe-kenta. That would imply a device, like the Mirror of Galadriel, or some sort of method short of a palantÃ*r. Gorbag knows it exists, but he is afraid to inquire into its nature for fear of being killed. He also knows that messages were sent to Barad-dûr the day after the Watchers sensed the Hobbits, but that the message was delayed because of the march out of Minas Morgul. “And then they couldn't get Lugbúrz to pay attention for a good while, I'm told,â€� implies that it was not a Nazgûl that sent the message: Sauron would surely have sense enough to pay attention to one of his precious Nazgûl.

Sauron’s servants used some kind of signaling system between Minas Morgul and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. Between the two quotes from Gorbag, Shagrat says that he and his orcs set out from the tower

About an hour ago, just before you saw us. A message came: Nazgûl uneasy. Spies feared on Stairs. Double vigilance. Patrol to head of Stairs.

That could have been telegraphed, as it were, in letters; more likely, each sentence is a single signal, and the tower received four signals. Besides the fact that this messaging is definitely not ósanwe-kenta, it also reveals that there was at least one Nazgûl still in Minas Morgul on March 13.