Snowstorm at the Redhorn Pass

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Contra the movies, I have never thought thaat Saruman was responsible for the storm on Carhadras. Gimli blamed the mountain itself, and I am inclined to agree. After all, Tom Bombadiil said "I am no weather-master, and naught is that goes on two legs."

Hmmm - I wonder if Bombadil is uninformed. Or if he's just trying to make the Hobbits feel better.

After all - the Witch-King is credited with the storm that sank the Elven ship that attempted to rescue Arvedui and his men. And... I had the distinct impression that Goldberry herself was behind the rainstorm on her 'washing day'.

[Butterbeer]

well as to the sinking in the frozen north, it is mere speculation, although personally were I Arvedui, i'd have listened

As to snow in the mountains, it's certainly up for debate, although Saruman i'd certainly rule out

and ol' Hop to, my merry fellow?

Not entirely sure VAL i'd use that quote with too much vigour

Best BB

[Alcuin]

Bombadil wasn’t trying to control the world around him. He manipulated it, so to speak: he commanded Old Man Willow to let the hobbits go; but he wasn’t controlling or commanding the weather. Until the invention of telegraph and radio for instantaneous long-distance communication, people did not know about weather patterns, something that we now learn as small children watching television weather. As far as I know, Benjamin Franklin is the first person on record to speculate about the motions of weather patterns because of a letter he received from a relative in another city that described a storm that passed several hours before or after one that struck Philadelphia. (There must surely have been earlier people whose notes have not been discovered or popularized.)

Sauron was trying to control the world. He did manipulate the weather. The narrative implies that he manipulated it in Eriador, clearing the sky so that he could look for the Company. He created the Darkness that covered Gondor and Rohan, presumably by altering the activities of Orodruin, but he was responsible for it. The narrative indicates that he was responsible for the wind, hail, driving rain, and lightning that smote the Emyn Muil when Frodo nearly fell off the cliff.

Gimli attributed the storm to Caradhras. Gandalf attributed it to Sauron. The narrative seems to indicate that the mountain seemed to have had some sentience; perhaps it was aroused by Sauron or his evil will.

And as for the Lossoth warning Arvedui that the Witch-king could summon storms in the Bay of Forochel during the winter, that suggests to me that local conditions could have made it easier or harder for a Maia or sorcerer to summon a storm.

So maybe none of them knew what was coming, unless he brought it about himself.

(The sudden idea of Sauron dancing a one-eyed rain dance strikes me as mildly humorous. And the Witch-king as a witch-doctor, tall, skinny, jumping about like a marionette on a string.)

[CAB]

Sauron causing the snowstorm makes little sense to me. He would effectively have been sending the Ring to Saruman or the Balrog.

If Sauron was aware of the company's location after they left Rivendell and before they reached Lorien, then why weren't the Nazgul dispatched to capture the Ring? Why weren't the Orcs that were recently sent to Moria used more intelligently (such as for cutting off the approach to Lorien)?

What is interesting to me is that everyone seems to instantly discount the possibility of the Balrog's involvement. Yet the snowstorm happened basically on the roof of its house (unlike very far away Sauron and Saruman) and placed the Ring within its grasp (again, unlike very far away Sauron and Saruman). Also there is the mountain's very old bad reputation, a reputation probably greatly due to earlier travelers experiencing just what the company did on the Redhorn pass. It would only make perfect sense if the force that caused the problems in the distant past was doing what it had always done. The Balrog is one of only two of our suspects to whom this could apply. Even so, I don't believe it was the Balrog either, because there is a better option.

The Misty Mountains were raised by Melkor to hinder Orome and his hunters. The Redhorn pass is…well a pass over these mountains. I am quite sure that mountain passes often have guards. Now, what kind of guard could Melkor post at this pass who could directly oppose Orome? Answer = None. So, if Melkor wished to defend this pass (and why wouldn't he after he had created the entire mountain range as a barrier?) then he needed someone or something who could deal with Orome and his hunters without directly facing them. Say by throwing bad weather and rock falls at them while, at the same time, remaining secretive to avoid any direct confrontation. Sound familiar? It sure would to the members of the Ring company.

Why would the force associated with the mountain give the company so much trouble when it obviously didn't treat all travelers this way (or the pass wouldn't be a pass at all)? People often say that the presence of the Ring triggered the aggression in the Balrog. I think the same thing applies in the case of the snowstorm.

[barrelrider110]

The last line of Chapter 3:

Caradhras had defeated them.

Whether the snowstorm was coincidental, an act of the malice of the mountain, or a contrivance of an enemy, none can be ruled out. It's one of Tolkien's enigmas left for us to forever debate. That's one of the reasons this story is so wonderfully enthralling.

There were signs of a coming snowstorm even before the Fellowship began to attempt the pass:

There was a black look in the sky, and the sun was wan. The wind had gone now round to the north-east. Gandalf snuffed the air and looked back. `Winter deepens behind us,’ he said quietly to Aragorn. ‘The heights away north are whiter than they were; snow is lying far down their shoulders. Tonight we shall be on our way high up towards the Redhorn Gate. We may well be seen by watchers on that narrow path, and waylaid by some evil; but the weather may prove a more deadly enemy than any. What do you think of your course now, Aragorn?’

A contrivance of Saruman? Maybe. Maybe the crebain were sent by Saruman, but he would have tried to steer the company toward the Gap of Rohan, not Moria.

A contrivance of Sauron? Maybe. Since he Nazgul were unhorsed, what servants did he have left at the time?

‘I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy,’ said Boromir. ‘They say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upon the borders of Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies.’
‘His arm has grown long indeed,’ said Gimli, `if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three hundred leagues away.’
‘His arm has grown long,’ said Gandalf.

Sauron, too, may have tried to steer the Fellowship closer to Isengard, to Saruman or even kill the company and search for the ring in the snow.

I think a snowstorm was far too subtle a device for either one.

`Ah, it is as I said,’ growled Gimli. ‘It was no ordinary storm. It is the ill will of Caradhras. He does not love Elves and Dwarves, and that drift was laid to cut off our escape.’

The mountain itself seems the most likely agent of the snowstorm, other than just bad luck.

Caradhras had defeated them.

But the storm was gathering before the Fellowship started the climb up the pass. This may sound dreadfully dull, but I believe the snowstorm was not contrived by anybody. I think it was purely a 'coincidence.'

[Coffeehouse]

I happen to believe the Fellowship simply had bad luck. Yet that does not have to rule out an indirect influence of f.ex. Sauron. Perhaps the Lord of the Rings' erupting darkness and stirring of the weathersystems in Mordor led to greater instability than was usual in Middle Earth? Who knows, perhaps the foul weather and bitter winter that came across the Fellowship in the Misty Mountains was a result of this?
"Caradhras had defeated them" might merely mean that Caradhras, the menacingly high mountain, which frankly it was madness to test in any case, was impenetrable in the midst of winter?
When Gandalf says "..but the weather may prove a more deadly enemy than any" that could be telling, just as one of the worst enemies of the Wehrmacht in Operation Barbarossa was the icy Russian winter (the worst in many years), yet nobody would blame Stalin for the weather in Stalingrad (or would they)

[Scrooge]

Originally Posted by Gordis

And about Gandalf. IMO, he was reluctant to light a fire not because of the restrictions laid on Istari, but because he supposed that SOMEONE was actually WATCHING! And that means, by the way, that he didn't think that it was the mountain itself that caused him problems.

Hi everyone!

Gordis, having spent the evening beginning to read these boards, I must say I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge of this tale! However, here I must disagree with your last sentence: if Gandalf thought that someone was watching the party and causing the storm, announcing his presence through a pyrotechnic display would have been a moot point, as said watcher would have already seen him (Gandalf, of course). Rather, being concerned about his use of magic announcing "Gandalf is here!" indicates that he believes the storm was chance or caused by un-aligned forces, and Saruman or Sauron might happen to notice the fireworks. Of course, Gandalf believing that it was not caused by one of the primary enemies has no bearing on whether it actually was.

Also, I don't believe it was chance. The text is very clear (though I only have audiobook handy, so no quotes) that the snowstorm had an extremely abrupt edge, like a cartoon raincloud over someone's head. The specific reference was to Aragorn and Boromir pushing through the extremely deep snow and suddenly bursting out of a drifted wall into a much more mild patch of weather. Further, there is a reference to the storm easing the instant the company turns back, and raging only when they attempt to press forward. My personal belief is that it is the ill will of Caradras, be it the mountain itself or the very interesting rogue Maia.

[Scrooge]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Just re-read this bit from TTT:

[Bit from TTT about the core of the eart being gnawed by nameless things]

While I actually find that to be one of the most intriguing lines in the tale, I take it to mean that those nameless things have no interest in, nor knowledge of, the world above them, and it is in our best interest to keep it that way. Certainly, if they had an interest in making the company pass through Moria, they would have sought to capitalize on succeeding, would they not?

[Scrooge]

Originally Posted by CAB

Thank you Gordis. Let me ask your opinion on this, I think it is related to the snowstorm question. It seems pretty clear that the Sirannon was dammed so the Watcher in the Water could guard the West gate of Moria. Only the inhabitants of Moria would take the trouble to do this, but it is doubtful that the Orcs could or would want to coax the Watcher to the newly created pool. This suggests that the Balrog was involved. Also look at the timing of the Watcher’s attack. It waits until just after the doors are opened (the company has been sitting outside the doors for quite a while) and then goes straight for the Ringbearer and no one else. It takes one half-hearted shot at capturing the ring immediately and when this fails it goes back to the real plan which is to force the ring towards the Balrog. If it had attacked moments earlier the company probably would have never entered Moria. The Watcher even goes so far as to bar the door after the company has gone inside. I think this is a pretty drastic move unless it is aware of the importance of the situation or has been given direct orders to do this. One other thing, although it seems a little improbable. The wolves that the company encounters could also be serving the Balrog. It was the only real power in the area. Maybe they weren’t really trying to kill the company but (along with the Watcher and whatever made the snowstorm) were merely forcing them to go to Moria.

I don't think the Watcher waited until the last minute because it wanted to ensure they went in and stayed in, rather, I believe it was only accustomed to paying attention to creattures that disturbed its pool. The Book of Marzarbul indicated that when Balin's folk were attempting to retake Moria the water was "up to the West Gate", meaning that the Watcher would have noticed any would-be entrant from that direction. It seems likely to me that, had Merry (was it him or Pippin?) not thrown that stone into the water, the company would have gone unhindered.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I thought it was Boromir.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Scrooge

Gordis, having spent the evening beginning to read these boards, I must say I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge of this tale! However, here I must disagree with your last sentence: if Gandalf thought that someone was watching the party and causing the storm, announcing his presence through a pyrotechnic display would have been a moot point, as said watcher would have already seen him (Gandalf, of course). Rather, being concerned about his use of magic announcing "Gandalf is here!" indicates that he believes the storm was chance or caused by un-aligned forces, and Saruman or Sauron might happen to notice the fireworks. Of course, Gandalf believing that it was not caused by one of the primary enemies has no bearing on whether it actually was.

OK, I concede you the point, Scrooge.
Welcome to the Moot!

[Alcuin]

It is possible that Saruman or Sauron might not have been able to see Gandalf as they could the rest of the Company of the Ring. Galadriel told the Company when she first met them (FotR, “Mirror of Galadriel”) that

I cannot see [Gandalf] from afar, unless he comes within the fences of Lothlórien: a grey mist is about him, and the ways of his feet and of his mind are hidden from me.

But if he lit a fire in a howling blizzard, and it looked the fireworks at Bilbo’s birthday party, then those would be signs that Gandalf is here “that all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin.”

I wonder if Tolkien had a specific chemical reaction in mind here. Copper (I) mixed with boron results in a “Violent reaction with incandescence” according to a Material Safety Data Sheet from Analytical Products Group. Copper (I) burns blue, while boron burns bright green in flame tests. If he did not himself know an appropriate reaction, there were many outstanding chemists at Oxford (and Cambridge) of whom he could inquire.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.