Tragedy in Spain

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
This is what seperates the European position from the American position and what they have been talking about on our news for the last couple of weeks. You just look at Al Qaeda as just terrorism - no different than the ETA. You ignore the fact the ETA doesn't want the distruction of Spain - they just want autonomy. Al Qaeda on the otherhand wants the destruction of the West.

ETA uses terrorism to achieve its goal. So does Al-Qaeda. Both are terrorist organizations. None of them wants democracy and both uses terror against democracy.

See - that is one of the problems between the US and Europe - you think that terrorism is just terrorism - we look at it as an overall war. it has been clear that that is the case by the way people from Europe are posting.

You don't look at terrorism as an overall war. You look at Al-Qaeda as an overall war. There is the problem. You look for your interests. You should not be puzzled when you say that others at the UN don't support your war against Iraq.

UN is the nearer thing to global democracy that we have. Begining an open war against the wll of the UN was not a good idea, and we're begining to learn that. Terrorism has used it against us.

[sun-star]

Knowing I'm going to get an insult as a reply, I plunge happily in anyway

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I know the PM wants to have his main objection be against terrorism - but I serirously doubt by his talk it is much to help the US. I hope Europe likes to be ruled by France and germany - since that is where this PM is aligning himself with. It's no secret that France, Germany and recently Britain are attempting to take control of the EU. In years - Eurupe and America will be enemies - are at the very least - allies of convenience as the new spanish PM said.

Would you rather this situation came about? I mean, you're certainly right that GB, France and Germany are in control of the EU - this is nothing new. Would you prefer that Britain were to stop being your ally (in the same way Spain is doing) because you have so much contempt for us and you'd rather fight alone? Is that your basic position here?


And (directed to everyone in general, not just jerseydevil) maybe we should support the right of the Spanish people to choose whatever government they like. We're fighting this war for democracy after all.

[Dwarven Sen]

Whooo

go sun-star
go sun-star

*does that little hand dance*

waiting for the return volley from JD

[Valandil]

Fat Middle, I'm curious... is there any 'second-guessing' going on now that the elections have happened... and played out the way they did? Are people starting to feel like their political process was manipulated by the terrorists?

Read an interesting column this morning by Georgie Anne Geyer... about the effects of this terrorist act on the government of Spain, and how politically calculated it was. One wonders if the terrorists are even experimenting with 'optimal time-frames' in order to most effectively influence elections.

Is two days before an election 'too close' to make people change their minds? Is two weeks before an election 'not close enough' - people might sway for awhile and then return to the opposite position to that desired, with even more resolve??? What's best? Five days? Seven?

Chilling also, is the thought that they may use this model to start gearing up for a 'fall surprise' in America. Trying to pin-point the best date to make an attack, and reveal their identities and wishes, hopeful of turning the election to the result they see as most advantageous to their cause.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by sun-star
Would you rather this situation came about? I mean, you're certainly right that GB, France and Germany are in control of the EU - this is nothing new. Would you prefer that Britain were to stop being your ally (in the same way Spain is doing) because you have so much contempt for us and you'd rather fight alone? Is that your basic position here?

I actually don't have contempt for great Britain or even Europe. I am however tired of the contempt we are shown by Europe. We don't live in a vacuum you know - we DO get your news and get to hear the comments that are made about America.

My position is that either the west stands together against terrorism and stops feeling that this is just normal terrorism that has been going on for decades - or we are doomed. Too many people are comparing it to ETA or IRA. That is a problem.

As for the EU - you know what I am talking about - and that has not been going on for very long. I am referring to France and Germany wanting to water down the Eastern European voting power in the EU while at the same time increasing their own. They want to create a Franco-German alliance that will stand against the US. That is a problem, unless you really do want Europe to be at war with the United States. I don't think Europe has what it takes though to give up their social services and build up the military the way France wants to do and the way they want Europe to do.

And (directed to everyone in general, not just jerseydevil) maybe we should support the right of the Spanish people to choose whatever government they like. We're fighting this war for democracy after all.

I do support their right to choose - i just think they chose in fear and in the heat of the moment - which played right into the hands of the terrorists. The first time a terrorist attack overthrew a democractic government like that. Tthe scary thing is - now with this success - they are emboldened to try it again.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
As for the EU - you know what I am talking about - and that has not been going on for very long. I am referring to France and Germany wanting to water down the Eastern European voting power in the EU while at the same time increasing their own. They want to create a Franco-German alliance that will stand against the US. That is a problem, unless you really do want Europe to be at war with the United States.

Oh, you were talking about the Nice thing. Well, surely the important point is that there are going to be these EE countries in the EU at all - most of which supported the war in Iraq. France and Germany have always wanted to dominate the EU and in the past were able to because there were so few members. The more members there are, the less influence two countries can have, however big they are or however much they mess around with their double majority voting.

I was actually referring to your comment about Blair though. It seemed you would prefer not to have Britain as an ally. Is that because you believe the US should fight the war on terror alone?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Valandil
Chilling also, is the thought that they may use this model to start gearing up for a 'fall surprise' in America. Trying to pin-point the best date to make an attack, and reveal their identities and wishes, hopeful of turning the election to the result they see as most advantageous to their cause.

I never expected them NOT to attempt it here during elections. But I think they are more emboldened to try it now. A terrorist groupd claiming ties to Al Qaeda (not confirmed yet) did release a statement in France - which was also threatening France with bombings. They gave a message for Spain - that now that Spain had done the CORRECT thing - they will not suffer anymore bombings. They will be setting their sites on Britain, Italy and Japan though. To the United States - they said they hope Bush gets reelected - because surely their is no one more stupid than him.

Antiterrorisme: les Européens réunis Ã* Bruxelles

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by sun-star
Oh, you were talking about the Nice thing. Well, surely the important point is that there are going to be these EE countries in the EU at all - most of which supported the war in Iraq.

So is your point that the Eastern Europeans should just be glad they even got allowed in - even if they don't have the voting power which was intially agreed on?

France and Germany have always wanted to dominate the EU and in the past were able to because there were so few members. The more members there are, the less influence two countries can have, however big they are or however much they mess around with their double majority voting.

They weren't able to influence it as much as they are now. I mean come on - France is even voting in the place of Germany.

I was actually referring to your comment about Blair though. It seemed you would prefer not to have Britain as an ally. Is that because you believe the US should fight the war on terror alone?

I didn't make any mention of Blair at all. Where did I mention Blair? or NOT want britain to be an ally? I can't see where you got that from - especially since I am upset that the terrorists were able to affect the Spanish elections and the US just lost a valuable ally - in and outside of Iraq.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
To the United States - they said they hope Bush gets reelected - because surely their is no one more stupid than him.

'Reverse Psychology'??? How quaint!

[sun-star]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
So is your point that the Eastern Europeans should just be glad they even got allowed in - even if they don't have the voting power which was intially agreed on?

No, obviously not. But it must surely be better that they have some influence than none at all.

They weren't able to influence it as much as they are now. I mean come on - France is even voting in the place of Germany.

We're not going to agree on this, so I won't comment further.

I didn't make any mention of Blair at all. Where did I mention Blair? or NOT want britain to be an ally. Especially since I am upset that the terrorists were able to affect the Spanish elections and the US just lost a valuable ally - in and outside of Iraq.

Sorry, I totally misread what you were saying - forgot that Spain has a PM too. But Britain is part of Europe, after all, and you aren't generally keen on European allies (trying to salvage something from the wreck of my stupidity )

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by sun-star
No, obviously not. But it must surely be better that they have some influence than none at all.

yeah - that makes a lot of sense. I guess if Britain's voting rights were to be watered down in favor of france and germany - you would say "well some voting rights are better than none".

We're not going to agree on this, so I won't comment further.

Well - it's the truth - it happened during the fall. You can't deny that Germany and France are building up a very very tight alliance - far tighter than it has ever been and they want the rest of Europe to fall under their control.

Sorry, I totally misread what you were saying - forgot that Spain has a PM too. But Britain is part of Europe, after all, and you aren't generally keen on European allies (trying to salvage something from the wreck of my stupidity )

I am keen on our European allies - I am not keen on the so called allies who have contempt for america though, such as france, germany. Nor am I keen on the citizens of our allies who think that the US is just a an evil imperialist empire - when we protected them for 50 years from the Soviet Union.

[Dwarven Sen]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I am keen on our European allies - I am not keen on the so called allies who have contempt for america though, such as france, germany. Nor am I keen on the citizens of our allies who think that the US is just a an evil imperialist empire - when we protected them for 50 years from the Soviet Union.

sorry sweetie but who are you keen on? I think you just eliminated everyone.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
yeah - that makes a lot of sense. I guess if Britain's voting rights were to be watered down in favor of france and germany - you would say "well some voting rights are better than none".

Was that sarcasm? If we'd had none to begin with, I'd say some are better than none, yes.

I am keen on our European allies - I am not keen on the so called allies who have contempt for america though, such as france, germany. Nor am I keen on the citizens of our allies who think that the US is just a an evil imperialist empire - when we protected them for 50 years from the Soviet Union.

From the way you talk about Europe it sounds like you'd be happier if al-Qaida bombed us into the ground Far more EU countries (or future EU countries) supported the US over Iraq than didn't. I don't like the "US is an imperialist empire" Europeans (and some Americans) either, but I don't like the "US has the right to command support for whatever they do, and whoever is not American is a lesser citizen" position any better. Both extremes are repulsive to me.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by sun-star
From the way you talk about Europe it sounds like you'd be happier if al-Qaida bombed us into the ground Far more EU countries (or future EU countries) supported the US over Iraq than didn't.

yes they did - but most people seem to forget that. I know that the majority of Europe GOVERNMENTS supported the US.

I don't like the "US is an imperialist empire" Europeans (and some Americans) either, but I don't like the "US has the right to command support for whatever they do, and whoever is not American is a lesser citizen" position any better. Both extremes are repulsive to me.

We weren't demanding support. The thing that US was upset with in regards to France and germany was not that they didn't support us - but that they told Colin Powell that they would see how Iraq reacted to one more resolution and that was it. They would not stand in the way of the US - but then when the resolution came and went - they went out of their way to challenge the US.

It was NOT the fact that they disagreed. Also - we do not have the opinion that "whoever is not American is a lesser citizen" you're getting us mixed up with France. The US is made up of immigrants from all over the world - so it's a bit ridiculous to claim that we think they that people are lesser citizens just becuase of they aren't American.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by sun-star
Was that sarcasm? If we'd had none to begin with, I'd say some are better than none, yes.

Yeah it was sarcasm. I guess it would be acceptable to be treated like a second rate country then. Like France and germany are treating them - and how you indicate they should just be happy.

From the way you talk about Europe it sounds like you'd be happier if al-Qaida bombed us into the ground

I forgot to answer this. I don't wish it - but I am afraid that it might be what Europe needs to wake them up - just like we needed Pearl Harbor to wake us up during World War II. Was Pearl Harbor terrible - yeah - was it necessary - yeah. If it didn't happen who knows what the world would be like right now.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
It was NOT the fact that they disagreed. Also - we do not have the opinion that "whoever is not American is a lesser citizen" you're getting us mixed up with France. The US is made up of immigrants from all over the world - so it's a bit ridiculous to claim that we think they that people are lesser citizens just becuase of they aren't American.

People are capable of holding illogical opinions - God knows I am

Well, that is an attitude that has been expressed by some people at this board, though of course I don't think (or at least I have faith that) it is not typical in America. France can be like that too. And - you must be getting sick of me saying this, I'm sick of typing it - such arrogance is a wrong, unhelpful, nasty, prejudiced, self-centred, immature, ignorant view that's half-way to terrorism itself. I hope we can agree on that.

I'm done now

[sun-star]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Yeah it was sarcasm. I guess it would be acceptable to be treated like a second rate country then. Like France and germany are treating them - and how you indicate they should just be happy.

I forgot to answer this. I don't wish it - but I am afraid that it might be what Europe needs to wake them up - just like we needed Pearl Harbor to wake us up during World War II. Was Pearl Harbor terrible - yeah - was it necessary - yeah. If it didn't happen who knows what the world would be like right now.

I'll remember that when London's attacked.

But I am done now. It's no good trying to be friendly in these kind of threads.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by sun-star
I'll remember that when London's attacked.

But I am done now. It's no good trying to be friendly in these kind of threads.

Let me ask you this - are you happy that Pearl Harbor was attacked? Would you rather pearl harbor not happen and us not get into World War II - or are you thankful that something happened that got us involved - although you wish that it wasn't an attack?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by sun-star
Well, that is an attitude that has been expressed by some people at this board, though of course I don't think (or at least I have faith that) it is not typical in America. France can be like that too. And - you must be getting sick of me saying this, I'm sick of typing it - such arrogance is a wrong, unhelpful, nasty, prejudiced, self-centred, immature, ignorant view that's half-way to terrorism itself. I hope we can agree on that.

I am not one of them. I am just tired of the constant America is evil stand or war mongering.

To tell you the truth - most americans loved Europe - we didn't think you were better than us - nor did we think you were beneath us. We always considered you partners and friends. But then the comments regardling America started coming out during the Iraq war. Not that they hadn't been there before, because I had experienced them. I know that many Europeans think we are a bunch of uncultured buffoons. I however still loved Europe and I still do - I just don't have any desire to live in Britain anymore - like I once had.

As I have said - Europe seems to be perfectly happy with America playing cop - as long as it's at the disposal of Europe and that is what pisses many Europeans and countries off right now. We had the nerve to do something that WE felt was in OUR best interest.

[Janny]

The constant 'America is evil' stance is not really a constant... it's trendy to hate the US because you're 'stringing Blair along' and 'infringing on people's civil liberties', or something. Of course I'm sure a government with a more passive stand would be populary accused of allowing attacks to happen.

As discussed in the hitorical trivia thread (plug ), it was already quite likely that the US would enter war with or without PH.

I'm a little confused by your stance vis-a-vis the new EU countries. Surely you're not denying that no progress is better than slight progress? Sure it may not be ideal but your view is like expecting females to reject the Representation of the People Act because it wasn't entirely fair. Progress, as a notion, is a gradual thing.