Who Really Killed the Witch King in ROTK??

[Jon S.]

Fascinating thread full of wonderful views and insights. One of our best!

[Zilbanne]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Fascinating thread full of wonderful views and insights. One of our best!

Truly Jon! And I like that here at Entmoot people can be friendly and still hold many different points of view!

[Attalus]

I have to admit that the last time we fought this over at SF_Fandom, we went over 30 pages and we lost several members - and I lost a personal friend.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

I have to admit that the last time we fought this over at SF_Fandom, we went over 30 pages and we lost several members - and I lost a personal friend.

Unbelievable - and what was the main difference in opinion? That Merry was more important that Eowyn?

[Attalus]

Basically, that it was Merrry's blow that did in the W-K and that Eowyn's blow was superfluous, as he had already been killed by Merry. We even went into the deep meaning of "knit his unseen sinews to his will", which to me means that the W-K was paralysed, temporarily, most likely, and that it was Eowyn's blow that finally sent him wailing back to Sauron. But, let me warn you, other views exist.

[Gordis]

Hmm... The blow delivered by Merry (behind the WK's knee) was certainly painful and temporarily crippling, but I can't imagine it would be mortal, magic or no magic. There had to be someone else to finish the job and fulfill the prophecy.

For one thing, we have clear data from the RC "Hunt for the Ring" that at Weathertop the nazgul did recognize the Barrow-Blades and feared them. How would they know of such blades and their danger if not a single nazgul - ever- had been wounded by such a blade?

But if any wound by such a blade were mortal, then we would have had one nazgul less. Yet, here they are - all the nine - hale and sound. Thus, I guess, one of them had been wounded, but recovered. And, most likely, it had been the WK himself during the Angmar wars.

[Attalus]

Hmmm, good point. I woud imagine Merry's Barrow-Blade to be the forbear of those many magic swords that paralyse the opponent for a variable period of time, before the spell wore off. Michael Martinez once wrote a highly enlightenening essay on the components of Middle-earth magic: there was a somatic component, e.g. stabbing the W-K, laying the blade over the hobbits' neck, grasping the door in Moria, followed by a verbalcomponent, exemplified by the Wight's curse and the "counterspell" of the Balrog, of which we know little. In this case, the verbal component would be Eowyn's defiance, followed by the somatic component of Merry's stabbling of the W-K, ended by Eowyn's blow. I pointed out at the time that Eowyn had to hit something, or her blade would not have been consumed, not she so afflicted by the Black Breath.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

For one thing, we have clear data from the RC "Hunt for the Ring" that at Weathertop the nazgul did recognize the Barrow-Blades and feared them. How would they know of such blades and their danger if not a single nazgul - ever- had been wounded by such a blade?

However, there is an undefined number of wraiths that were not Nazgûl. Frodo would have turned into one of those if the blade-shard had not been removed in time from his shoulder.

Could it not be, speculating once more, that the barrow-blades have been tested and found lethal on those lesser wraiths? While the Nazgûl were far more powerful, their nature would not have been very much different of the other wraiths. It would make sense the smiths of Arnor had something other than Nazgûl to test their blades on. I really doubt the Barrow-blades are just a lucky find, there must have been a long metallurgic process of trail and error beforehand.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

However, there is an undefined number of wraiths that were not Nazgûl. Frodo would have turned into one of those if the blade-shard had not been removed in time from his shoulder.

Could it not be, speculating once more, that the barrow-blades have been tested and found lethal on those lesser wraiths? While the Nazgûl were far more powerful, their nature would not have been very much different of the other wraiths. It would make sense the smiths of Arnor had something other than Nazgûl to test their blades on. I really doubt the Barrow-blades are just a lucky find, there must have been a long metallurgic process of trail and error beforehand.

I'm afraid that I must disagree here. I don't believe that the blade's magic had been found by luck, nor do I believe that it would have required many tries. And we know for sure that Witchking had been stabbed at least two times.

Surely you'd think that they (Numenorians) had knowledge of this arcane art? They had most information at that time, when we talk about the post-Numenorian- time. After the fall of Arnor, the knowledge certainly diminished along with the greatest of the Men. So I'd say it only took 2-4 tries. Had the blades been done at the near end of Third Age, it would have required the help of the Elves to research them that quickly - and without them, it certainly would have taken (for example) the Rangers a much longer time and many more tries. 'Tis just my humble view.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

And we know for sure that Witchking had been stabbed at least two times.

Before Merry and Eowyn? When?

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Before Merry and Eowyn? When?

I don't know exactly when, but it has to be so, since all the blades that stab him break - I think this includes ordinary steel and magical steel. So they both have been tested, and so we know that even a magical blade is broken in contact with him.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Based on the Aragorn quote. Got it. Very reasonable interpretation.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

I woud imagine Merry's Barrow-Blade to be the forbear of those many magic swords that paralyse the opponent for a variable period of time, before the spell wore off. I pointed out at the time that Eowyn had to hit something, or her blade would not have been consumed, not she so afflicted by the Black Breath.

The last bit is unquestionable: the WK was still alive when Eowyn dealt her blow. More difficult is to counter the opinion that he would have died all the same given some time, just because of BD blade's magick.
I don't know about the WK being exactly "paralyzed" by Merry's blow: I have an impression that any living man being stabbed behind the knee would have fallen to his knees and remained incapacitated for quite some time, just because of the pain.
Maybe the BD blade was magical not because the wounds it caused were unusually grave, but simply because of the fact that it allowed to wound the wraith in the same way as if he were a mere Man stricken by a normal blade.

It may well be that an ordinary blade (or an arrow) disintegrates at the first contact with the nazgul blood, so the nazgul would never get more than a scratch, easy to heal. The BD blade perishes also, but it burns much later - after doing the damage. And note that the BD blade perishes some considerable time after it had been used (Merry had time to speak with Theoden, to see Eomer and the mumakil and only then he noticed his sword was burning:

And behold! there lay his weapon, but the blade was smoking like a dry branch that has been thrust in a fire; and as he watched it, it writhed and withered and was consumed.

Another observation: the BD blade "flickered red, as if it was a firebrand" in the spirit world and it "burned all away like a piece of wood" after use. The blades were "damasked with serpent-forms in red and gold" and "set with many fiery stones." Looks like there was some Fire-magic in them - and the nazgul, by the way, all feared fire.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

However, there is an undefined number of wraiths that were not Nazgûl. Frodo would have turned into one of those if the blade-shard had not been removed in time from his shoulder.
Could it not be, speculating once more, that the barrow-blades have been tested and found lethal on those lesser wraiths? While the Nazgûl were far more powerful, their nature would not have been very much different of the other wraiths.

I like this idea. Indeed there were lesser wraiths, and maybe a few of them had been killed by such blades - that's how the nazgul became aware of the peril. Not necessarily one of the Nine would have had to be stabbed, indeed.

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

I don't know exactly when, but it has to be so, since all the blades that stab him break - I think this includes ordinary steel and magical steel. So they both have been tested, and so we know that even a magical blade is broken in contact with him.

Aragorn who said "all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King" seems not to be aware of the existence of the Barrow blades and their virtues. At Weathertop he never told the hobbits to take out their swords, instead he told them to prepare torches. So, "all blades" may well mean "all sorts of blades that had ever pierced the Witch-King", but not necessarily including the BD blades.

With that, it becomes even more confusing.

[Alcuin]

The Elves, and the Eldar in particular, could see into the wraith-world, “the other side,â€� as Gandalf put it to Frodo when he awoke in Elrond’s house. Any surviving MÃ*rdain would have described, as best they could, what had transpired in Eregion, and what they had constructed under the tutelage of “Annatar.â€� That would have given the other Noldor some idea about what they were dealing with as far as the Seven and Nine were concerned, although, as Gandalf told Frodo in Hobbiton, “there is only one Power in this world that knows all about the Rings and their effects,â€� meaning that only Sauron really knew how they worked.

I think we can infer that Sauron, the Necromancer, was misusing connections to “the other side� – the wraith-world – to alter how the Elves aged, to slow the effects of Time on them and on their surroundings. I doubt Tolkien ever bothered to work out how this necromancy functioned, only that it did; as a side effect, it pulled Mortals into the wraith-world, extending their lives in Arda “like butter that has been scraped over too much bread,� but causing them to “fade� physically just as the Elves “faded� in Middle-earth, though much more rapidly.

However the Rings functioned, the Dúnedain and Elves also had to deal with the barrow-wights, which existed in the wraith-world, too. I think the context of finding the wraith-injuring “barrow blades� (there were at least 4 of them – Frodo’s was broken by the Witch-king at the Ford of Bruinen, apparently by a spell – and maybe more in the barrow from which Bombadil freed the hobbits) in the barrow of Cardolan’s last prince indicates that the folk of that kingdom made them; in any case, the Northern Dúnedain made them for fighting, well, wraiths, including barrow-wights. The Númenórean smiths had to get their information on how to deal with these awful critters from some source, and the Eldar, as well as bad experience, seem the only likely sources. I wouldn’t imagine the Nazgûl, the barrow-wights, or any other evil spirits would be too forthcoming with information on how Men might harm them.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

I'm afraid that I must disagree here. I don't believe that the blade's magic had been found by luck, nor do I believe that it would have required many tries. And we know for sure that Witchking had been stabbed at least two times.

I'm afraid I don't follow. The only two times I remember is on Weathertop and at the battlefield before the gates of Gondor, well into the Third Aera and long after the forging of the blades. How does this relate to only a few tries to develop the blade?

Surely you'd think that they (Numenorians) had knowledge of this arcane art? They had most information at that time, when we talk about the post-Numenorian- time. After the fall of Arnor, the knowledge certainly diminished along with the greatest of the Men. So I'd say it only took 2-4 tries.

What sort of arcane arts? Necromancy or metalurgy? While much knowledge was lost after the break-up of Arnor, there is no reason a few new techniques/alloys may not have been discovered and subsequently lost in the remaining petty kingdoms. The Numenoreans, while powerful, didn't know everything there was to know.

And forging weapons was still necessary as the Arnorian kingdoms were often at war, be it with Angmar or themselves. So forging weapons against enemies, corporeal or not-quite-so, would have been a reasonable field of study. How would you conclude out of the fact that knowledge would have been diminished that finding the anti-wraith swords only took a try or four?

Had the blades been done at the near end of Third Age, it would have required the help of the Elves to research them that quickly - and without them, it certainly would have taken (for example) the Rangers a much longer time and many more tries. 'Tis just my humble view.

But if the Elves had been involved in the research and making of the barrow-swords, shouldn't they have remembered the knowledge of it then? Why then did they not make their own anti-wraith swords? I'm sure they knew good use for those as well.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Maybe the BD blade was magical not because the wounds it caused were unusually grave, but simply because of the fact that it allowed to wound the wraith in the same way as if he were a mere Man stricken by a normal blade.

This has always been my impression as well.

It may well be that an ordinary blade (or an arrow) disintegrates at the first contact with the nazgul blood, so the nazgul would never get more than a scratch, easy to heal. The BD blade perishes also, but it burns much later - after doing the damage. And note that the BD blade perishes some considerable time after it had been used (Merry had time to speak with Theoden, to see Eomer and the mumakil and only then he noticed his sword was burning:

Interesting observation. I wonder whether the makers also devised of some way for the blades to be 'cleaned' after using on a nazgul, to keep it from vaporising. The ancient Dúnedain of Arnor didn't quite strike me as people who made disposable objects.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I'm afraid I don't follow. The only two times I remember is on Weathertop and at the battlefield before the gates of Gondor, well into the Third Aera and long after the forging of the blades. How does this relate to only a few tries to develop the blade?

NEL referred to Aragorn's words : "All blades perish that pierce that dreadful King". He thinks it implies:
1. That the WK had been known to be wounded before Weathertop.
2. It had happened at least twice (to allow for generalization -all blades)
That's how I have understood NEL's words, at least.

Originally Posted by Earniel

What sort of arcane arts? Necromancy or metalurgy? While much knowledge was lost after the break-up of Arnor, there is no reason a few new techniques/alloys may not have been discovered and subsequently lost in the remaining petty kingdoms. The Numenoreans, while powerful, didn't know everything there was to know.

The alloy and the sword design were quite distinctive. The Mouth calls Sam's sword "blade of the Downfallen West" - that means the Island people in the SA had similar blades. Yet Denethor is more specific and sees that Pippin's blade was made in the old Arnor. Nobody confuses them with Elven or Dwarven blades. Yet, neither Denethor, nor the Mouth, nor even Aragorn perceive the BD swords as magick anti-wraith blades. I guess the design and alloy were rather common for Arnor and Numenor, it were only the runes and the spells that made the swords unique.

Originally Posted by Earniel

How would you conclude out of the fact that knowledge would have been diminished that finding the anti-wraith swords only took a try or four?

I don't really believe that the smiths of Cardolan had the benefit of any tries. They did their best and gave the blades to the warriors, hoping the spell would work. Quite likely, they died without being sure whether they succeeded in making the anti-WK weapon or not. The Nazgul, on the other hand, did know about the blades and their peril - so at least one of them or the lesser wraiths had been wounded/killed by such a blade.

Originally Posted by Earniel

But if the Elves had been involved in the research and making of the barrow-swords, shouldn't they have remembered the knowledge of it then? Why then did they not make their own anti-wraith swords? I'm sure they knew good use for those as well.

I wholly agree - good argument. I am sure the Elves had no part in the making of these swords.

Originally Posted by Earniel

Interesting observation. I wonder whether the makers also devised of some way for the blades to be 'cleaned' after using on a nazgul, to keep it from vaporising. The ancient Dúnedain of Arnor didn't quite strike me as people who made disposable objects.

Come on! If once in a thousand years one of such blades has the luck to wound/kill a nazgul, it is worth its money a thousand times over. It matters not whether the blade burns away afterwards - the old smith who made it would be happy anyway. (And note it is not really "disposable" - it could be used many times on ordinary creatures - men, trolls, orcs). It is an old tradition that a blade breaks after fulfilling its supreme goal (Narsil, Turin's blade etc.)

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

But if the Elves had been involved in the research and making of the barrow-swords, shouldn't they have remembered the knowledge of it then? Why then did they not make their own anti-wraith swords? I'm sure they knew good use for those as well.

After the arguments, I too think that the Elves propably didn't help. But if we, for arguments's sake, presume they did - what use would they have had for them? Mithlond, Mirkwood, Rivendell, Lórien, Lindon. Aren't those the Elven Kingdoms of the 3rd Age? Apart from Rivendell, there hardly were any wraiths anywhere nearby. Having become a secretive people, the Elves would hardly go and search for wraiths (=problems). As for Imladris, I doubt that Elrond would say to his Noldor folks: "OK, guys, time to go wraith-hunting. Why don't you polish your armor, I'll forge us a few anti-Nazgûl- blades, and I'll see you in the hall in three years. Questions?"

And Eärniel, I think that you overdo it. What I say I mean; it's difficult to lead anything correct from what I say, cause there are no hidden thoughts in my words. I speak straight and more or less true. No offense, pal.

[Willow Oran]

Apart from Rivendell, there hardly were any wraiths anywhere nearby.

The elves of Mirkwood and Lothlorien beg to differ. They might have quite liked some anti-wraith blades to use on their unwanted neighbors.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

The elves of Mirkwood and Lothlorien beg to differ. They might have quite liked some anti-wraith blades to use on their unwanted neighbors.

So they didn't have them. So how did they destroy the supposed wraiths in Dol Guldur? I doubt Galadriels hurricane or whatever did it.

... wait, you're an Elf? Hello, cousin! I wish I knew a Sindarin "Hello"...

[Willow Oran]

Mae Govannon!

I don't know how at all, but I suspect Nenya is capable of more hurricanes and Thranduil is rumored to have some power of his own.