Opinions: Fëanor, ritcheous or over-proud?

[Attalus]

Whoops, you are right, half-uncle is correct.

[Ruinel]

She wasn't obsessed with Fëanor's (half-uncle is correct, btw) deeds nor with him. She just saw him for what he was, that made her dislike him. (She was very wise.)

[Attalus]

I agree. She saw him as he was, hateful, and breeding hateful sons.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I agree. She saw him as he was, hateful, and breeding hateful sons.

I'm confused as to what you are getting at? Hateful sons? Galadriel never had any bias -only Feanor himself.

From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding, and she withheld her good will from none SAVE FEANOR ONLY

I really don't see how the sons of Feanor were 'hateful' in Aman. It is probable that whilst in Tirion (Though it is probable that the Finarfians spent a lot of time in Alqualonde) the Third Gen Finweans mixed quite a bit, as shown by this passage from the Shibboleth of Feanor:

And when his sons in their childhood asked why their kin in the house of Finwe used S for P

Also, not the various inter-Finwean friendships, such as Fingon and Maedhros, Curufin and Celegorm and Aredhel and the fact that Maedhros ands Maglor, pre-oath were as wise and noble as any Elves, and Amrod and Amras, as shown by the shibboleth were pretty 'innocent' characters.

[Ruinel]

Inderjit, I see your point that pre-oath sons of Feanor were quite different from post-oath sons of Feanor. And I see your point that the oath changed them, somewhat in their personality.

However, I have to point out that there had to be a seed of malice within them for the oath to fertilize.

Feanor was not a meek and mild Elf in Aman. It would be safe to say that his sons would follow in his footsteps, wanting his approval. That's what children do. They try to be like dad, or mom, to win the approval of their parent.

As for his followers in the mass exit from Aman, many followed because they were stirred by his words. Some went on the journey, not because they followed him but because of their loyalty to kin (be that kin him or others) and could not be parted from that kin.

Galadriel did not follow Feanor because she wanted to obtain the Silmarils. She did so because she was restless, she wanted to see ME, and she wanted a rule of her own. Finrod followed because of his close bond with his cousins, not because of Feanor.

[Attalus]

Here, I am speaking only of Celegorm and Curufin, because of their actions in Nargothond.

Thus they broke off their hunt and returned to Nargothond, and Luthien was betrayed; for they held her fast and took away her cloak, and she was not permitted to pass the gates or to speak with any save the brothers, Curufin and Celegorm. For, now believing that Beren and Felagund were prisoners beyond hope of aid, they purposed to let the King perish, and to keep Luthien, and force Luthien to give her hand to Celegorm.

That is despicible conduct.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Attalus
Here, I am speaking only of Celegorm and Curufin, because of their actions in Nargothond. That is despicible conduct.

I whole heartedly agree! And it was not done because of any great love of Luthien, but to advance their power in ME. She was the only daughter of a powerful king, and would have made a great trophy for Celegorm.

[Linaewen]

Back to Fëanor...

JRRT said this in the LotR Appendix A:

Fëanor was the greatest of the Eldar in arts and lore, but also the proudest and most self-willed.

So there you go. (In response to the thread title)

Sorry, I just had to post this - I am the Desperate Attacker of Fëanor, after all... You may resume your conversation...

[Maedhros]

As for his followers in the mass exit from Aman, many followed because they were stirred by his words. Some went on the journey, not because they followed him but because of their loyalty to kin (be that kin him or others) and could not be parted from that kin.
Galadriel did not follow Feanor because she wanted to obtain the Silmarils. She did so because she was restless, she wanted to see ME, and she wanted a rule of her own. Finrod followed because of his close bond with his cousins, not because of Feanor.

The Ñoldor followed because they wanted to rule new realms withouth the supervision of the Valar. Fëanor was the one who dared to voice that, simple.
In the later versions, Galadriel was going to ME with Celeborn, but the whole rebellion occurred and she was caught in the Doom of Mandos too. As for FF, he followed the rebellion because he thought that his loyalty towards his cousins greater than his loyalty to his father. Ironically, that is something that Fëanor would have done.

[Ruinel]

Isn't that what I said?

[BelegS]

As for FF, he followed the rebellion because he thought that his loyalty towards his cousins greater than his loyalty to his father. Ironically, that is something that Fëanor would have done.

But surely Feanor loved his father more then anything else and he would never have given anything preference over his father?

[Artanis]

Nice avatar, Ruinel

Originally posted by Ruinel
Isn't that what I said?

No? You said the Ñoldor left Aman because they were misled by Fëanor, or followed those who followed him. Maedhros said the Ñoldor in general left Aman for their own reasons, misled by Melkor. I think. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Originally posted by Maedhros
In the later versions, Galadriel was going to ME with Celeborn, but the whole rebellion occurred and she was caught in the Doom of Mandos too.

Do you hold to that version? Tolkien changed the history of Galadriel and Celeborn so many times, and this version he wrote at the very end of his life. It is inconsistent with everything else that is written about Galadriel and Celeborn in the first age. I think that version is too - well - unfinished.

Originally posted by BelegS
But surely Feanor loved his father more then anything else and he would never have given anything preference over his father?

I think that's exactly what Maedhros is trying to say

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Artanis
Do you hold to that version? Tolkien changed the history of Galadriel and Celeborn so many times, and this version he wrote at the very end of his life. It is inconsistent with everything else that is written about Galadriel and Celeborn in the first age. I think that version is too - well - unfinished.[/B]

I agree with you. To begin with, it's hardly consistent with LOTR's prologue because the most credible reason for Celeborn not to ride to the Havens with Galadriel is that he had never lived in Aman so his love to ME was greater.

Tolkien wanted that all the history of the Ancient Ages were consistent with what he had published in LOTR, so i think that he woud have reject that version if he had the time.

[Attalus]

I dunno. I kind of like it that Galadriel was planning on leaving, anyway, and then got caught up in the whole rebellion thing and received the Ban of the Valar as a result. One more thing to chalk up against Feanor, from Galadriel's point of view. About Celeborn, that would have been easy to change, IMHO.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Attalus
I dunno. I kind of like it that Galadriel was planning on leaving, anyway, and then got caught up in the whole rebellion thing and received the Ban of the Valar as a result. One more thing to chalk up against Feanor, from Galadriel's point of view. About Celeborn, that would have been easy to change, IMHO.

Well, Galadriel hated him from the time he asked for a lock of her hair, so the rest was easy for her.

I (heehee) agree about Celeborn.

[Ruinel]

Ah, but it was more than his petulance in asking for a lock of her hair. She percieved him for who he really was, in all his weaknesses.

[Attalus]

I agree. From Unfinished Tales:

Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years. Her mother name was Nerwen (man-maiden), and she grew to be tall beyond even the measure of the women of the Noldor; she was strong in body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth. Even among the Eldar she was accounted beautiful, and her hair was held a marvel unmatched. It was golden like the hair of her father and her foremother Indis, but richer and more radiant, for its gold was touched by some memory of the starlike silver of her mother; and the Eldar said that the light of the Two Trees, Laurelin and Telperion, had been snared in her tresses.
Many thought that this saying first gave to Feanor the thought of imprisoning and blending the light of the Trees that later took shape in his hands as the Silmarils. For Feanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him one hair. These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends forever.

And

From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding, and she withheld her goodwill from none save Feanor. In him she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, though she did not perceive that the shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor, and upon her own.

- from "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn"

[Maedhros]

Ah, but it was more than his petulance in asking for a lock of her hair. She percieved him for who he really was, in all his weaknesses.

And with her own narrow mind, she didn't perceive that she was tainted too. The sad thing is that by refusing to give him a lock of her hair, she showed arrogance and petulance too.

[Wayfarer]

He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him one hair.

Anyone connected this with Gimli's similar request?

Feanor begged repeatedly for a tress of her hair, and was given nothing- while Gimli, upon humbly requesting a single hair, was given three.

Incidentally... Galadriel was the tallest of the Noldor women, and she was given a height of two Rangar- 6'4". That was /average/ height for men during the second age.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
And with her own narrow mind, she didn't perceive that she was tainted too.

Galadriel's major fault was her strong desire for power and dominion. You're right to say she didn't see her own faults at the time in Aman, but she didn't have a narrow mind. She saw more clearly than any into the minds of others, but she showed both mercy and understanding. And I don't think she was tainted, I'm not sure if Fëanor was tainted either. But they both were ensnared by the lies of Melkor.

I think she unconsciously understood that the darkness she saw in Fëanor was the darkness that had touched herself and all the Ñoldor, and that's why she hated and feared it so strongly.

The sad thing is that by refusing to give him a lock of her hair, she showed arrogance and petulance too.

You're very strict on Galadriel now. A woman's hairlock as a gift is a very personal gift, something you don't give away to anyone but the nearest and dearest.

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Anyone connected this with Gimli's similar request?

Feanor begged repeatedly for a tress of her hair, and was given nothing- while Gimli, upon humbly requesting a single hair, was given three.

Galadriel was grown far more mature and wise by then, and Gimli deserved it, both by Galadriel's demand to name what he wished for, and his contribution to the Fellowship.