Christopher Lee...MAD!!!

[Gerbil]

The stakes are incredibly high. He's shooting for a final LOTR film that:
1) ties the three films together;
2) remains faithful to Tolkien's vision;
3) wins the Academy Award for Best Picture; and
4) becomes only the second movie in film history to gross over a billion dollars at the box office.

Wow, it's been a while since I've had to be [Flame Deleted] since he's on my ignore list and has been for over a year I think But people quoting him was just too tempting not to reply to

Using BB's quote above, he's destroyed his own defence / attack - n1. The good thing about this place is the trolls are sub-standard compared to the rest of the internet.

1) Leaving a MAJOR (biggest to date) plot-line unresolved. Also making no reference to the culmination to the biggest event (to date) seems like a great way to tie the films together right?
2) If it wasn't so early in the morning that me laughing wouldn't wake my girlfriend, I'd be doing it out loud. Again, removing a key scene obviously keeps it faithful to the book. Jackson has done enough hacks though that this won't bother him, even though it's pissed off one of the best actors in the film. Having said that, does anyone remember when FotR came out and the casting notes were made public, that Saruman was pencilled in only for the first two films? Obviously at that time PJ thought he'd wrap up TTT properly. Which he didn't.
3) This is for the film studio to decide, not Jackson. It's perfectly conceivable (although highly unlikely in this case) that New Line pushes some other film of theirs for BP and hushes up RotK. Jackson won't have to worry - RotK will win, and if not, his next pic will. The Academy has a long tradition of not awarded BP to the most deserving film, but to whoever 'feels' right to win.
4) Again this is something for NewLine to worry about (it's their marketing / funding behind it). If it doesn't break a billion, I somehow doubt NL and PJ will be crying all the way to the bank...
Anyway, the best way to make a lot of money is to make the best movie you can. Cutting scenes like this (undoubtedly because of PJ's own created sideline 'plots') will NOT help matters.

Personally I think the screenplay writers / adapters have been on one long power trip. They take arguably one of the best and most influential books of all time, and their egos tell them they can improve upon it. Sadly, in this case, their egos massively overreached their abilities.

[Black Breathalizer]

I find it interesting how often I'm criticized for my "you purists" talk when outright attacks like Gerbil's above are okay here. I guess its okay to be hateful and negative as long as you do it in the name of Tolkien.

Originally posted by Gerbil
1) Leaving a MAJOR (biggest to date) plot-line unresolved. Also making no reference to the culmination to the biggest event (to date) seems like a great way to tie the films together right?

I've been told the true Tolkien way is not to show everything. If Tolkien doesn't have to show us the Ent attack, why does Jackson have to show Saruman's end? Anyone with half a brain understood that Saruman was defeated at the end of TTT. Talk about being spoon-fed!!!

The Return of the King is a Sauron film, not a Saruman one.

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
I find it interesting how often I'm criticized for my "you purists" talk when outright attacks like Gerbil's above are okay here. I guess its okay to be hateful and negative as long as you do it in the name of Tolkien. I've been told the true Tolkien way is not to show everything. If Tolkien doesn't have to show us the Ent attack, why does Jackson have to show Saruman's end? Anyone with half a brain understood that Saruman was defeated at the end of TTT. Talk about being spoon-fed!!!

The Return of the King is a Sauron film, not a Saruman one.

Touche! (Although I do not think that is a direct attack on you personally, just on what you are saying and how you say it)
As the quote from Forrest goes: St*p*d is as St*p*d does.

From now on all will refrain from the use of the word St*p*d*ty. (Anyone care to buy a vowel. )

If you wish the movies to be judged soley as movies alone, then I think Gerbil's comment has merit

1) Leaving a MAJOR (biggest to date) plot-line unresolved. Also making no reference to the culmination to the biggest event (to date) seems like a great way to tie the films together right?

If you wish the movies to be judged as part of the JRRT LOTR mosaic, the movies must take some hits for how the film adapts JRRT LOTR novel to screen. (any additions and/or omissions of the stories will and can be critique by others for how well they stay true to the spirit of JRRT's novel.)

I do not think that you can have it both ways.

I, on the whole, enjoyed (so far) PJ&co LOTR, even with the many problems (primarily due to how the film adapted LOTR) I have with the films. I still think it could have been much better.

Even if the films are critiqued as stand alone movies, I have some problems with them. (the hastiness of the ents to name one area)

[squinteyedsoutherner]

I've been told the true Tolkien way is not to show everything. If Tolkien doesn't have to show us the Ent attack, why does Jackson have to show Saruman's end? Anyone with half a brain understood that Saruman was defeated at the end of TTT. Talk about being spoon-fed!!!

No, Saruman's army has been destroyed, Saruman the "wizard" is still intact, with all his former power. In fact one following the films, not having read the book, might now wonder why Saruman does not try to possess Denethor making Sauron's attack on Gondor easier.

The Return of the King is a Sauron film, not a Saruman one.

The best arguement for why it should have been resolved in the previous film.

[Gerbil]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
[B]I find it interesting how often I'm criticized for my "you purists" talk when outright attacks like Gerbil's above are okay here.

Aw poor BB, I see you still haven't grown up in the year since I blocked you

I guess its okay to be hateful and negative as long as you do it in the name of Tolkien.

No it's 'ok' to do it as long as you are making a coherent point, which you weren't, which I easily pointed out. The fact I got a few cheap jibes in is merely a 'bonus'

I've been told the true Tolkien way is not to show everything. If Tolkien doesn't have to show us the Ent attack, why does Jackson have to show Saruman's end?

So two wrongs make a right then eh? I'd have been happier with the ents attack being out (although huorns please, and not in any EE crap), and Saruman's defeat being in (even if it's the butchered 'on a spike' rubbish). Tolkien wrote about what he wrote about, and I'd have preferred PJ to stick a bit closer to the source - if not in scripting / scene for scene, then at least in a general notion, not simply inventing his own rubbish and deleting important book scenes elsewhere.

Anyone with half a brain understood that Saruman was defeated at the end of TTT.

Depends now, this is quite complex regarding the book, but for film viewers only, it's possible - since Saruman has not displayed any of the powers we know from the book he has (bar possessing someone, oops was that PJ getting all inventive again?), eg his voice, nor is it shown that he's more than just a human (astute film onlys could get this from Gandalf -> Saruman, but it's not that clear). Nor of course does he do anything after Orthanc unlike the book.
I'd say simply that for a filmic person, if anything, he won't really care because Saruman was simply a speed-bump in the road to the final film and big climactic ending.
Us book-lovers know otherwise of course, but PJ has done a remarkable job of downplaying the role, only to be thwarted by Lee's commendable acting.

The Return of the King is a Sauron film, not a Saruman one.

Old squinty eye'd answered this point to perfection above me.

The thing is, the third film opens with Pippin in Orthanc with the Palantir. Now, film viewers being idiots or not, they are going to ask where the wizard who used to be in charge of it is.
This, of course, assumes we take CL on a literal wording of his issues - that he is not in ANY scenes (or by implication has no voice overs). To be honest I can't see how that's possible, but I'm sure PJ will hack it.

My main sadness is it would have made a great start to RotK - remember how TTT started with Gandalf's fight with the Balrog? An epic confrontation that I still rate as probably the best bit from the films so far. We could have had another 'big' start to a LotR film with Saruman's death. That there's no battle to go with it for a truly epic start is simply down to what appears to be PJ's crap uncertainty of how RotK would start when TTT was finally edited.

Saruman's end could fittingly go either at the start of RotK or at the end of TTT. It's at neither, and that IS annoying.

Damn board forgetting my login, BB wasn't blocked. Still, got another chance to have a bash, so it can't be all bad.

Could be worse, you could all be here where I'll have to wait until December the 25th for RotK to be released. Lucky they celebrate Xmas on the 24th - I'll be spending the 25th 'giving myself a couple of Christmas presents' (I intend to see it twice in a row like wot I did with FotR and TTT )

[azalea]

I think we'll get something along these lines:
Gandalf and Co. arrive in Isengard and find M & P. The palantir floats by(? this is probably wrong, because obviously it's too heavy, but I don't think it'll be in the storeroom. So maybe it'll be ON something that's floating OR they'll actually go in and it'll be somewhere in there) with a lot of other stuff from the first few floors of Orthanc. Pippin grabs it and looks into it, then Gandalf grabs it, yada yada yada. OR maybe Gandalf will get it first, and they'll have it at their encampment (with Aragron either looking into it before or after Pippin), and the action proceeds from there.

[I deleted the flame above, BB. Please understand that I can't be on all the time, so it may be a while before I find posts that need editing.
As mithrandir said, we all need to stop calling people stupid. That is a flame. Furthermore, if anyone sees a flame directed against themselves or anyone else, they can use the button that says "report this post to a moderator," and that will alert us of the problem post more quickly. Arguing about it with the poster will only lead to off topic bickering that might then escalate. Better to say nothing, and either ignore it or report the post, or even PM the person about it directly first if they have their PM turned on and ask them to remove it because it is offensive to you.]

[Cirdan]

I doubt it will be anything that complex. Remember, they don't cut out anything from the theatrical version . I think it will be something like,"Hey, I can't believe Saruman threw the palantir." in some later scene. This would allow the deleted scene to be spliced in later for the EE.

[thranduil]

Originally posted by Cirdan
. Remember, they don't cut out anything from the theatrical version . I think it will be something like,"Hey, I can't believe Saruman threw the palantir." in some later scene. This would allow the deleted scene to be spliced in later for the EE.

You are wrong. IF you watch TT EE there are scenes missing that were released in the theater. But I'm going for your theory of how they will do finding the palantir

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by thranduil
You are wrong. IF you watch TT EE there are scenes missing that were released in the theater. But I'm going for your theory of how they will do finding the palantir

Actually it was my theory, I posted it earlier in the thread

[Nurvingiel]

Jumping into the thread... whee!

I don't get it. If (and we can't be sure until we've actually seen the movie) Saruman has been cut, how will Pippin get the Palantir? I guess it could be cut too, but it was such a useful plot device. That's why Merry and Pippin were split up. Without the Palantir, there would be no reason to.
Wrapping up unresolved plot lines isn't necessarily spoon feeding the audience.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Actually it was my theory, I posted it earlier in the thread

I don't see your post (maybe a different thread). I didn't notice missing scenes but then I didn't buy both DVDs. I did watch the TR several times however. Which scene do you think is missing?

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Cirdan
I don't see your post (maybe a different thread).

hehe, maybe it is in another thread then But either way I agree, I am sure they will just mention it somehow.

Word has it, pippin looks into the palantir in Meduseld...

[Cirdan]

I see. I think I was unclear in my post. I meant the extended edition version on DVD will have all the scenes from the theatrical release plus the ones deleted and new" ones. I don't think they will do alternate scenes in the EE.

[Black Breathalizer]

What is becoming increasingly clear is that the EE versions are for true Tolkien fans. So Peter Jackson DOES feel he can have it both ways: He can craft a theatrical version that he feels is the best while knowing that he can add the any deleted scenes back into the EE editions.

The reality is that after all three DVDs come out, the three films will always be marketed together as the books have been over the years. Arguments about deleted scenes like the gift-giving scene and Saurman's end will be mute because they will be a part of the full Lord of the Rings story that will be in fans' movie libraries.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Arguments about deleted scenes like the gift-giving scene and Saurman's end will be mute because they will be a part of the full Lord of the Rings story that will be in fans' movie libraries.
_________________________________________

Your suggestion is arguably a valid one for some, but...

only if they fork out hundreds of dollars for complete sets of the three movies theatrical version and the three movies extended dvd version. And, for many people, purchasing a dvd converter or new television is big $$$$$$$$$$$$.

There are people who either don't want, don't understand, can't afford, etc. dvd hardware and software just to see a different interpretive LOTR version then the theatrical one. And the thatrical viewing "experience" would still be lost.

[Nurvingiel]

In addition, Jackson didn’t even film the Scouring of the Shire. Apparently, he didn’t like that part of the book – it happens to be my favourite part!

I would certainly appreciate that gift giving scene though. Maybe he cares about us Tolkienites a little bit.

Dunedan:

Word has it, pippin looks into the palantir in Meduseld...

If that's true I'm going to be choked. If Saruman really is cut, I suppose this is as good as they could get that.

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
In addition, Jackson didn’t even film the Scouring of the Shire. Apparently, he didn’t like that part of the book – it happens to be my favourite part!

He said that on TTT DVD, didn't he? I almost choked when I heard it! I love that part of the book -- it shows how much the hobbits have grown.

I have heard at least one review of the ROTK say that it felt like the Saruman angle wasn't tied up properly. Won't ordinary viewers, who would not buy the ROTK EE, wonder what happened to him? He is a powerful wizard -- it's too much to assume he wouldn't make trouble after Isengard is flooded. I would prefer that he landed on the big, spiky wheel than nothing at all! And what about Grima?

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
He said that on TTT DVD, didn't he? I almost choked when I heard it! I love that part of the book -- it shows how much the hobbits have grown.

I know! That's one of the reasons I love that part! Jackson doesn't like that part, ha! He probably lost interest in the book and stopped reading before he got that far. Maybe because Aragorn wasn't in that part. Arrr.

I have heard at least one review of the ROTK say that it felt like the Saruman angle wasn't tied up properly. Won't ordinary viewers, who would not buy the ROTK EE, wonder what happened to him? He is a powerful wizard -- it's too much to assume he wouldn't make trouble after Isengard is flooded. I would prefer that he landed on the big, spiky wheel than nothing at all! And what about Grima?

The jury's out until December 17th.

[kennebecc]

It seems ages since being shocked by the Saruman cut . . here are some more:

No Voice of Saruman No Aragorn-Sauron Confrontation via Palantir No Crossroads No reference to Palantir in Minas Tirith (Denethor doesn't have it) No Ghan-Buri-Ghan, Beregond, Bergil, Ioreth, Prince Imrahil No Gandalf-Witch King Confrontation at the Gates of MT No Mouth of Sauron No Houses of Healing, no Aragorn as healer No Faramir-Eowyn romance nor wedding No Galadriel at Aragorn/Arwen's wedding No Scouring of the Shire

I understand that most of these scenes were filmed and will be in the Special Edition . . but, still . . .

[Nurvingiel]

Well what the heck! At least Frodo will destroy the Ring... right? There was a lot of important stuff in those scenes though, no wonder Christopher Lee's mad. Can I infer from all these cuts that the Battle of Pelennor Fields will take up half the movie? The other half will grudgingly be devoted to Frodo's quest.