Muslims

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Eärniel
JD, would you just listen to your self? Do you have any idea how you sound right now?

Look in the mirror you said, but have you tried it yourself lately?

The more I hear you, the more indeed I think I do not understand the way Americans think and the more I think America understands little more of how we think as well. And that's really, really a shame.

The thing is - you don't KNOW me. I know more about you. I have actually been to England - I WATCH French news on a daily basis - which is local french news - not like BBC that is international. I look at European LOCAL news sites on the web. You go into CNN.com or BBC - but you don't look at our local news sites.

And no - I don't think you understand us at all. I wish sometimes the Europeans would listen to the way they sound - like Fat Middle claiming that Europe knows more than the US becuase you have older countries. That is a typical arrogant European attitude - but the sad thing is - I have heard it repeatedly by europeans when I was in England, on the French news and by Europeans who visit the US.

My father had also sold part of his company years ago to a British printing company - at the time one of the largest in Europe. They had offices all over Europe - so I had A LOT of personal contact with Europeans too. How many personal contacts have any of you had with Americans? And I don't mean the ignorant tourist. I'm talking about - how many Americans have you gone to the movies with - because I have gone to the movies with Europeans, how many people have you had lunch or dinner with? Because I have done both those things with Europes. How many of you have shown an American around your town or city? Because I have.

I'm pretty sure I have far more PRSONAL experience with Europeans - than the Europeans on this board have with Americans.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Screw you gaffer

Thanks for the offer, but even though I don't know you, I can tell you're not my type. Maybe I'm prejudiced.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, you know, I think what is wrong here Earniel, is that people like JD, myself, and other Americans get tired of the constant finger pointing and critisism of this country. We feel that we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't. Nomatter what the US does, nobody likes it, but yet you do not see anyone else on this planet doing more to make the world a better place than the US does, and yet, we are looked at as: proud, arrogant, war mongering, power hungry, political, dictators. It gets old.

You forgot ignorant, lazy, fat, uncultured. I've heard those personally from Europeans. The "uncultured" comments were while I was eating lunch with some people from Britain (it wasn't part of the conversation - they just felt I should know now much better they eat in england than here).

[Sister Golden Hair]

REMINDER- I just want to remind everyone that the flames are not going to even get started here. Keep on topic, and do not flame, or I wiill not hesitate to close this thread.

[Insidious Rex]

The height of double standardism in some of these responses is enough to give me altitude sickness. I am an American. And I have never understood why it is certain Americans ALWAYS insist that everything America stands for is right and everything that certain other cultures and countries stand for is wrong or at least not nearly as good. Why is it SO hard to think that theres boloney and pig headed short sighted lunacy on both sides. Why is it always the arabs who are lowly rigid sub human terrorists who don’t understand the Truth that western culture is just the right way of doing things? Why is it ALWAYS my way is right and your way is wrong? Black and white. Ive never been able to understand this simplistic gingoistic attitude toward politics. I think maybe we might have to do a devils advocate exercise here with some people where you are forced to take the opposite side of the argument so you can be enlightened on how things aren’t ever quite so cut and dry…

Personally I thought the gaffer’s post was an excellent post and I in no way felt insulted as an American by anything he said. And JD YOUR response to him embarrassed me quite frankly. Let me ask you a related question though. Do you believe that EVERY policy Israel operates by in dealing with the Palistinians is right on the money and you support 100%? Whats your opinion on how they are carving up whats left on the palestinan land for their own use? Whats your opinion on this wall they are throwing through Palestinian territories were 99.9% of the people JUST want to live in peace and make a living? Do you think by doing what Israel is doing now they are NOT fomenting extreme hate on the part of the palastinians? Is shooting missles into apartment complexes going to truly benefit them in the long run do you think? I guess what Im asking is (while trying to avoid your knee jerking in my direction…) is do you seriously in all honesty think the approach Sharon and Israel is taking now toward the Palastinians is really the best way to go about things? Im really just curious.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Ruinel
So, quit lumping all Americans together into your own neat little stereotype. We are not mindless, war-mongering brutes. Grow up.

classic double standard. Its wrong to “lump all Americans” together of course but its ok to assume every palastinian is a terrorist and loved what happened on sept. 11. both assumptions are fallacies.

Back on topic.
I had a lot of empathy for the Palestinians prior to 9/11. I always wanted what was fair for them. I wanted to see them work toward peace.

Then when the WTC was destroyed, and all those people were killed, the news showed them... dancing in the streets, celebrating the murder of thousands of innocent people. I was disgusted!

I have no feelings for them anymore. My empathy is gone for them. I don't think they got a raw deal after all. And I don't care if Israel pushes them off the face of the Earth. They have my blessings.

Exactly what Im talking about. ALL palastinians were dancing in the streets celebrating? First off what we saw those first few days after sept 11 was apparently stock footage shot like long before after a suicide bombing in response to some Israel strike on a village so it wasn’t even related to sept 11 after all. And most of the media outlets that ran it said so later. That’s why you never see it now. Second the palastinians had nothing to do with sept 11 so to say you support the complete annihilation of their culture and society because they were happy is ignorant and down right scary (isn’t that what the germans tried to do to the jews?). Third of all you have a people who GENUINELY feel completely oppressed and that THEY are the ones in the right who are so disgusted and furious about things that any strike on the “enemy” could very well elicit a positive response. Even when MILITANT palastinians were interviewed after the attack their response was not GLORY GLORY IM SO HAPPY! But essentially well its too bad about the innocent people but that’s what you get for your Israel loving policies etc. which you can of course condemn them for as well (I would) but that’s hardly jubilation and dancing.

I get the impression here that some people think oh those arabs/palastinians they know they aren’t right but they just act like fools and idiots just for the heck of it cause they are greedy. But cant we accept that many many MANY palastinians JUST want peace and DON’T want Israelies to be their arch enemies they just want to get along. And MANY MANY would never want innocent lives lost? But that they genuinely feel they have been backed so far in a corner that what recourse do they have? And for those people who made the comments well they hide terrorists in with people so if we kill women and children that’s just the way it goes well what kind of thinking is that? Its brutal murderous butchery either way. On BOTH sides. And BOTH sides genuinely feel the way they feel. One side isn’t kinda sitting back and snickering about how they are getting away with something they know is wrong. They both feel they are right. That’s where the seed of the conflict is.

ok all done

[Valandil]

JD - you've offered the most thoughts / quotes here - and there were a few I wanted to respond to (gotta teach myself how to do the "quoter" thingee!).

First, your statement that religion has caused more wars, death, fanaticism than anything else in history... a common contention, but I beg to differ. World's #1 all-time mass-murderer - Mao Tse Tong, #2 - Stalin - both atheists. #3 would've been Hitler - and if he had a religion, it was probably his own. Napoleon is probably up there somewhere - don't know his religion, but he was a product of an atheist movement.

Note though, if you're looking for a little support here - and I do agree with some of what you've said - Mao, Stalin, Hitler and Napoleon were gifts to the world from China, Russia, Germany (via Austria) and France - the UN countries who most opposed the US going after another mass-murderer - Saddam Hussein! (who himself only cloaked his formerly secular government in Islam in order to gain popular and regional support vs US)

I also take issue with your statement about the midwest from WAY back on this thread (it was you, JD, wasn't it?). Chicago is certainly a diverse area - and we all mostly get along (except that there are probably SOME idiots everywhere - and we Do get our share). Even many small midwestern towns are diverse - my hometown of Carbondale (pop 26,000) has a very diverse make-up - there's a university there that draws a lot of internationals. It's not the region of our country someone is in - it has more to do with the exposure they've had. Most people are fearful of the unknown - and that's the same if you're in a midwestern small town, somewhere back east or out west - or in a less integrated part of Europe or wherever else. Haven't been to Seymour, Indiana - but even there, your friend could have probably found some good folks who were much more tolerant and accepting. With these times, our country is changing fast - especially the rural parts I think. With modern communications, nowhere is "remote" any longer. I have a lot of hope for that.

I had to say that mostly for the benefit of our non-American mooters. Don't want them to think the entire midwest is a bleak place - devoid of anyone who can accept someone who's different. But - don't worry. No offense taken - I'm too old for that. Figure you just may not have had proper midwestern exposure yourself.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Ruinel
So, quit lumping all Americans together into your own neat little stereotype. We are not mindless, war-mongering brutes. Grow up.

I apologise. I did not intend any offence and meant only to draw a parallel between people who celebrate warfare.

But do you really believe that most Palestinians celebrated 9/11??? If so, you are more brainwashed than those drunks in the bar.

The rest of what I wrote was intended to refer to everyone, Europeans, Arabs, whatever. The fact that so many of you thought I was having a go at Americans speaks volumes.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much...

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, you know, I think what is wrong here Earniel, is that people like JD, myself, and other Americans get tired of the constant finger pointing and critisism of this country. We feel that we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't. Nomatter what the US does, nobody likes it, but yet you do not see anyone else on this planet doing more to make the world a better place than the US does, and yet, we are looked at as: proud, arrogant, war mongering, power hungry, political, dictators. It gets old.

I do see that SGH. And you may not believe it, but I think I do know how that feels. However I hope you understand that switching it around and starting to bash Europe and other countries at even the least expectation of anti-americism is also no solution. That is getting old too. And it only strengthens some people's belief in exactly those false stereotypes that you mentioned.

A bad comment about America is made, and is immediatly followed by an anti-europe one and it goes on and on and on. I am so very tired of it. Every time the threads start to revolve around this America versus the world-debate.

This constant pot-kettle-premise isn't going to solve anything, it'll only bring us deeper and deeper into trenches. Frankly I don't think there is a clear-cut solution to this. But I wish it would just stop.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Eärniel
This constant pot-kettle-premise isn't going to solve anything, it'll only bring us deeper and deeper into trenches. Frankly I don't think there is a clear-cut solution to this. But I wish it would just stop.

I nominate Eärniel for head of the UN.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
The height of double standardism in some of these responses is enough to give me altitude sickness. I am an American. And I have never understood why it is certain Americans ALWAYS insist that everything America stands for is right and everything that certain other cultures and countries stand for is wrong or at least not nearly as good.

I hope you aren't directing that at me - because I have NEVER claimed that the US is perfect in everything - as a matter of fact I have repeatedly said we aren't perfect. People want to only look at one part of hat I say and that's it. That's fine though - it just shows your ignorance and the fact that you don't know me.

Why is it SO hard to think that theres boloney and pig headed short sighted lunacy on both sides. Why is it always the arabs who are lowly rigid sub human terrorists who don’t understand the Truth that western culture is just the right way of doing things?

Why is it ALWAYS my way is right and your way is wrong? Black and white. Ive never been able to understand this simplistic gingoistic attitude toward politics.

Believe me - I don't have a gingoistic attitude. I guess I should just go along with what everyone else says on this board and say the US sucks. Then everyone will be happy and you can include me in your "enlightened" group. Yeah - right - like that'll happen. . I don't think you are any more enlightened - I think you just have a different opinion then me. But your opinion is NOT going to chaneg mine nor is your attitude.

I think maybe we might have to do a devils advocate exercise here with some people where you are forced to take the opposite side of the argument so you can be enlightened on how things aren’t ever quite so cut and dry…

Yeah - I'd like to see a European say something nice about the US. But then hell would freeze over.

Personally I thought the gaffer’s post was an excellent post and I in no way felt insulted as an American by anything he said.

See that's YOUR opinion not my. I was speaking for myself - who his post was directed at.

And JD YOUR response to him embarrassed me quite frankly.

Why should it embarrass you? It didn't concern you whatsoever.

Let me ask you a related question though. Do you believe that EVERY policy Israel operates by in dealing with the Palistinians is right on the money and you support 100%?

YOu would read my damn posts you would know that I don't support Israel in everything. I even stated it in this thread. But I think the Palestinians are more at fault.

Whats your opinion on how they are carving up whats left on the palestinan land for their own use? Whats your opinion on this wall they are throwing through Palestinian territories were 99.9% of the people JUST want to live in peace and make a living?

As I have said in past threads - I disagree with the settlements and should be dismantled. I have also said that I disgaree with the wall - but looking at the REPEATED suicide bombings - what do you suggest Israel do?

Do you think by doing what Israel is doing now they are NOT fomenting extreme hate on the part of the palastinians?

I think Israel is currently REACTING to the BLATANT hatred the Arabs have for Jews. If you don't see their hatred then you are truly blind.

Is shooting missles into apartment complexes going to truly benefit them in the long run do you think?

No -= I don't - but when Israel has retrained themselves - it back fires. What would you do - if grocery stores were being bombed here, if restaurants were being bombed, etc? Would you want the US to just sit down and talk to bin Ladin? let's negotiate with him - see how far it gets us. How long do the Palestinians need to stonewall peace before people stop blaming Israel?

I guess what Im asking is (while trying to avoid your knee jerking in my direction…) is do you seriously in all honesty think the approach Sharon and Israel is taking now toward the Palastinians is really the best way to go about things? Im really just curious.

I've answered your questions - now do you think Arafat supports peace? Do think the suicide bombers bring peace, dismantle the checkpoints? Do you forget that several months ago Israel started to dismantle the checkpoints as part of the road map to peace and then were rewarded by bombings?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Eärniel
A bad comment about America is made, and is immediatly followed by an anti-europe one and it goes on and on and on. I am so very tired of it. Every time the threads start to revolve around this America versus the world-debate.

I didn't make any anti-European remarks. I have no hatred or disilike even for Europe or Europeans. I was just stating things that Europeans have said about Americans. I fyou consider that Euro bashing then a good thing you aren't American where you hear far worse.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
classic double standard. Its wrong to “lump all Americans” together of course but its ok to assume every palastinian is a terrorist and loved what happened on sept. 11. both assumptions are fallacies.

Who said that they did? But I want MORE action the lip service for peace that we have been getting from the Palestinians for all these years.


I don't have time to respond to all the stuff directed at me right now - I will get to it later. You may disagree with my political feelings and that is YOUR choice - it doesn't make me any more wrong than you nor does it make you more right than me.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
I nominate Eärniel for head of the UN.

What? Good intentions, big mushie dreams of global understanding and cooperation, trying to keep everybody from doing rash things and sadly seemingly ineffective to bring about the necesary changes? Yep, sounds like me.

[Valandil]

JD is drawing lots of flack here - and appears to be kept quite busy just ANSWERING all the questions directed his way. Let me stand with him just a bit (perhaps not in total agreement - but consider the following).

I've heard this said:

"If Palestinians laid down their weapons today, there would be no more fighting.
If Israel laid down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel."

Agree or disagree? Discuss:

Another thought - I really feel bad for Palestinians. Unfortunately, I think (much of) the rest of the Arab / Muslim world loves the status quo. They have the Palestinians there to be a thorn in the side of Israel, as long as they can keep them poor - and keep them hating Israel. The rest of the Arab countries who dislike Israel are more than happy to let the Palestinians do their dirty work - and suffer the consequences for it.

Uh - JD - did you see my prior post? At your leisure though, if necessary.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
... typical arrogant European attitude

So that would be an example of you not being anti-European.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Valandil
"If Palestinians laid down their weapons today, there would be no more fighting.
If Israel laid down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel."

I would agree if you change the word "fighting" for "Palestine".

[Valandil]

Gaffer - you honestly see Israel eradicating Palestinians? I just don't see it. In fact, I think they could have done so - and that it's to their credit that they haven't made the effort.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
So that would be an example of you not being anti-European.

No it's not - because it is an arrogant attitude and I have REPEATEDLY heard it from many many Europeans - from politicians to people on the street and people who I have met.

[Valandil]

and Gaffer... if it's the state of Palestine you're refering to, it doesn't exist NOW. Israel is willing to accept a new one - but each time they get close, another bomber goes off in a bus or a cafe. What would YOU do?