who else?

[Elfhelm]

Once again, BB, you are baiting people by categorizing and dehumanizing them. When they cease being individuals and are only "literalists", "purists", etc., they will forever be inclined to fight you and disinclined to give your points any consideration.

Once again, JD, you are exagerating and distorting other people's opinions. The only response they could possibly have to that is to try to re-word their opinions, which in the end is merely repetitive and unproductive.

The fact is, BB has re-read the books many times just like the other JRRT fans here. If people were to actually browse the Books forum they would see some very lively discussions which could never take place without a good knowledge of the texts.

And obviosly, PJ has far to much work to do at this moment to waste his time arguing with me. It would be preposterously egotistical to presume that PJ would even consider my opinion. If I were one of the artists whose paintings inspired him, or one of the linguists who has written about Tolkien's invented languages, maybe he would ask my opinion. But since I'm just a fellow reader, I see no reason why he would care what I think.

I don't like the way they handled Theoden's problems because they missed the point, as I stated above.

But they certainly have been more attentive to the original text than they were to any of Phillip K. Dick's novels. And even though we are Tolkien fans here, we have no business saying that Dick is less important and that therefore it is OK to screw up his stuff.

So I can understand why this constant objection to minor changes could bother some people. But IMHO the movies are good.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

BB has a point about the movie's opting for a more visual confrontation of the wizards, which also moves the story quickly along. My criticism of it is fairly minor. But as for
__________________________________________________ _

"Okay, gang....how did Gandalf lose control of his staff??? Would you have us believe he simply admitted defeat and handed it over to Saruman? How did he get to the top of Orthanc? Did he shrug his shoulders in dispair and say, "okay, Saruman ol' buddy, I guess I have no choice," and walk willing up flights of stairs to get there?"
__________________________________________________ _
Well, actually, yes. Gandalf, perhaps carelessly, walked into a trap. He was surrounded by many orcs and Dunlendings, and an Istari who at that time was presumably more powerful then Gandalf, as the senior of the order. Gandalf was in the position of a soldier surrounded by a vastly superior force. In that case the only rational option was surrender, including his weapon (staff).
And would two maia engage in a street fight, getting bloody noses, when the outcome could not be in doubt?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Once again, JD, you are exagerating and distorting other people's opinions. The only response they could possibly have to that is to try to re-word their opinions, which in the end is merely repetitive and unproductive.

I am stating my opinions and saying how ridiculous I feel BB's constant support of Jackson is. Words such as "pure genius" don't describe Jackson in my view. I feel - as do many others that Jackson created an action movie and left out the feeling behind the characters as well as some very important emotional and character development scenes. The Giving of Gifts is one. He completely did a hack job on the Flight to the Ford, the scene on Weathertop was overblown, the Troll fight in Moria carried on way too long, the list goes on and on.

The fact is, BB has re-read the books many times just like the other JRRT fans here. If people were to actually browse the Books forum they would see some very lively discussions which could never take place without a good knowledge of the texts.

Well that may be the case - but he doesn't come across it here.

And obviosly, PJ has far to much work to do at this moment to waste his time arguing with me. It would be preposterously egotistical to presume that PJ would even consider my opinion. If I were one of the artists whose paintings inspired him, or one of the linguists who has written about Tolkien's invented languages, maybe he would ask my opinion. But since I'm just a fellow reader, I see no reason why he would care what I think.
[/b]

My sister worked in Hollywood PR - you would be surprised how much they do care. Or at least try to convince people of how great their stuff is. Anything that is printed or televised about an artist gets clipped by a clipping agency and sent to the PR firm. She usually they don't go to the web - but they would if it was a big enough discussion or site.

So I can understand why this constant objection to minor changes could bother some people. But IMHO the movies are good.

In my opinion they are average I as I have said. If it wasn't "Lord of the Rings" on the cover - I don't even think I would own the DVDs.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
...The fact is, BB has re-read the books many times just like the other JRRT fans here. If people were to actually browse the Books forum they would see some very lively discussions which could never take place without a good knowledge of the texts.....

O.o
Where has BB posted in the Books forum? I'd like to know, because I've never seen him post there. Perhaps I've just overlooked his posts, or perhaps he's posting under a different name.

[Elfhelm]

This thread was originally about Theoden. It has turned into an insult BB thread. Has everyone had their overreaction to BB's "pure genius" comment now? He loves the movies. So what?

Do you think Theoden is an ass in the movie? Is that the way you think the character should have been portrayed?

[Black Breathalizer]

Yes, we wants to know too. Why do the nasty mooters insult poor, poor BB. We tries to be nice to them, don't we, preciousss? We tries to debate nice and be friends. But cruel, wicked posters hurts us.

I told you they were tricksey. I told you they were rude...

[Elfhelm]

I thought I explained that already. When you turn individuals with diverse opinions into various "-ists" you upset them and they go defensive. It's called de-humanizing, or objectifying.

[Ainaromenel]

So that Theoden guy, what a character, huh? I mean, the old chap died by having his trusty horse fall on him! Ya know, Theoden seemed pretty cool to me though, like when he was chillen with Merry and listening to stories of the shire. I think that's pretty cool. So yeah. BB, nice impression of Smeagol. I liked it.

Go Bengals!

[Black Breathalizer]

The Scene: Tolkien's Council of Elrond where Gandalf describes the details of his capture:

The words of Tolkien:
Gandalf: "They took me and they set me alone on the pinnacle of Orthanc."

Suddenly a man stands up and waves his hand.

Black Breathalizer: Yoohoo, Gandalf. I have a question. Your description leaves the specifics of your capture awfully vague and open to debate. How EXACTLY did "they take you"???

Gandalf: I think that's irrelevant to my tale. The important thing is that Saruman held me against my will.

Black Breathalizer: I understand completely, Sir. Since this part of the tale is told second hand, you're leaving it to our imaginations to visualize the specifics. But while it's really all we need to know for the novel, the problem is that Peter Jackson made a film showing your capture in real-time.

Gandalf: So what?

Black Breathalizer: Well, PJ ASSUMED you wouldn't accept your captivity without a fight while others who read your books ASSUMED you passively accepted your fate.

Gandalf: Do I strike you as the kind of wizard who would abandon Frodo to the ringwraiths that easily?

Black Breathalizer: N-N-No, Sir. It's just that these so-called "Purists" I was debating against were so darn sure they had you pegged. In fact, they were so adamant about their truth, they couldn't resist ridiculing Jackson for his version of events.

Gandalf: Tell these jokers they don't hold any patents on Tolkien truths.

[Lizra]

Well, I finally found Theoden/Bernard. He loves my perfume, and he doesn't care what you guys think! So...we'll be clinking crystal wine goblets by the fireplace, Cheers!

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
The Scene: Tolkien's Council of Elrond where Gandalf describes the details of his capture:
Suddenly a man stands up and waves his hand.

Black Breathalizer: Yoohoo, Gandalf. I have a question. Your description leaves the specifics of your capture awfully vague and open to debate. How EXACTLY did "they take you"???

Gandalf: I think that's irrelevant to my tale. The important thing is that Saruman held me against my will.

Black Breathalizer: I understand completely, Sir. Since this part of the tale is told second hand, you're leaving it to our imaginations to visualize the specifics. But while it's really all we need to know for the novel, the problem is that Peter Jackson made a film showing your capture in real-time.

Gandalf: So what?

Black Breathalizer: Well, PJ ASSUMED you wouldn't accept your captivity without a fight while others who read your books ASSUMED you passively accepted your fate.

Gandalf: Do I strike you as the kind of wizard who would abandon Frodo to the ringwraiths that easily?

Black Breathalizer: N-N-No, Sir. It's just that these so-called "Purists" I was debating against were so darn sure they had you pegged. In fact, they were so adamant about their truth, they couldn't resist ridiculing Jackson for his version of events.

Gandalf: Tell these jokers they don't hold any patents on Tolkien truths.

Great Jackson fanfiction. Jackson would be proud of you - however I'm sure Tolkien is rolling over in his grave.

Orthanc WAS Saruman's home and Saruman led Gandalf up to the top. Saruman was also more powerful - so why is it so impossible? Gandalf in the book clearly trusted Saruman until he took his staff and imprisoned him. Radagast also had no reason to distrust Saruman and had delivered the message to Gandalf to go to Isengard.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ainaromenel


Go Bengals!

As a loyal Browns fan I couldn't let that slide, those are fighting words. Meet me in the NFL thread in GMs. Down with the Bungles. GO BROWNS!

Back to Theoden. Sorry folks.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
As a loyal Browns fan, those are fighting words. Meet me in the NFL thread in GMs. Down with the Bungles. GO BROWNS!

I don't think a discussion of the Bengals or Browns belong in this thread. This isn't even general messages Forum. I suggest you go to the correct forum and thread.

Back to Theoden. Sorry folks.

Don't add this in after I post.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I don't think a discussion of the Bengals or Browns belong in this thread. This isn't even general messages Forum. I suggest you go to the correct forum and thread.


Don't add this in after I post.

Who the hell are you? Don't talk to me about being off topic. This thread has been off topic for two pages, no thanks to you. I will bop you with my stick so hard, that when you come to, your memory will be so bad that you will have forgotten everything you've read and you will be a loyal LotRs movie fan. Take that!

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Who the hell are you? Don't talk to me about being off topic. This thread has been off topic for two pages, no thanks to you. I will bop you with my stick so hard, that when you come to, your memory will be so bad that you will have forgotten everything you've read and you will be a loyal LotRs movie fan. Take that!

You are evil - truly evil. You are cursing me to be like BB.

And I talked about Theoden - the scene sucked. One of the worst in the movie.

[Sister Golden Hair]

The fact is, BB has re-read the books many times just like the other JRRT fans here. If people were to actually browse the Books forum they would see some very lively discussions which could never take place without a good knowledge of the texts.

I just want to bring this to the attention of Elfhelm. I did a thorough search on BB's posting in the book forums. He has started a total of two threads in the LotRs books forum. One in the Silmarillion forum. None in the Middle-earth forum. He has posted to four threads in the LotRs forum that were started by other people. Not an abundant amount I'd say. I'm not saying he hasn't read the books, but the majority of his posting is in the movie forum. Okay, enough of that.

We will now make a serious effort to get back on topic. The discussion is about Theoden. Not Gandalf, not Saruman, not the Browns and Bengals, not BB, but Theoden.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
We will now make a serious effort to get back on topic. The discussion is about Theoden. Not Gandalf, not Saruman, not the Browns and Bengals, not BB, but Theoden.

I called BB - Grima Wormtongue - does that count?

[Ainaromenel]

Oh Theoden! Where for art thou Theoden?

Umm, this is a poem I wrote about Theoden:

Theoden Extempore
Theoden came from the land of the Rohirrim,
Not Rohans, or Gohans, but Rohirrim.
And ever did Theoden love to do,
Was to talk small talk and drink some brew.
Theoden found himself in a tight situation,
As the orcs of Sauruman were building up tension,
Who's master had a bought with the great Gandalf,
Leaving all people wondering which was Theoden's better half?
A prideful king? A pleasent merry chum?
Perhaps he just like to sit around on his bum.
For all the matters of Theoden great and small,
None would be as important as getting Grima out of his hall.
This limerick may now be coming to a close,
But lets not debate such frivolus things as who is wearing better clothes!


I hope that was on topic, but I can come up with more things too. My next piece could be Improvisate of Theoden . Goodnight, and God Bless!

[hectorberlioz]

Goodnight.Adieu.
as i said before "Ainaromenel the peace maker". Hope you werent offended earlier on by my speculation. I was just poking fun.

[hectorberlioz]

ok this is off topic, but i have to post it.
this is adressed to BB.
When I first came here,I was a PJ fanatic. And I saw people didnt agree with my views.
I was like "oh great i hate this place now" . However I started keeping my opinions to myself. Let them bash PJ and the movies.
Liking the movies does not mean you have to go to extreme lengths to protect PJ or his interpretation.
While liking the movies(and i like them a lot) I accept that PJ did not follow true to the books. I give PJ his points for the tings he did right. And I leave it at that.
BB, I'm not trying to be your counselor or anything,but, you're going to have to accept that some people arent going to ever like PJ or the movies. (and IF you ARE PJ, you're going to have to deal with it).
It all comes down to: Accept the faults,Give credit for the trueness.