LOTR in Other Languages

[Jonathan]

Why are the Portuguese and Brazilian versions different? It is the same language, right? Shouldn't they be almost exactly the same?
It's like having one British version and another American one.

[Shadowfax]

Originally posted by Nimphredil
Here's the Estonian version

Ooh, that's great! I would really like to learn how to speak or write Estonian! I've been trying to find a book to learn from, but there really aren't very many good ones out there.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Jonathan
Why are the Portuguese and Brazilian versions different? It is the same language, right? Shouldn't they be almost exactly the same?
It's like having one British version and another American one.

Yeah, pretty much. They speak the same language, but they speak it differently.

[Nimphredil]

BTW they didn't just translate the books into Estonian, they changed the names as well. Don't know why they did it, probably to make it sound more Estonian. Most of the place-names which meant anything were changed (Isengard - Irontown, Rivendell - Rockcrack), the names in Elvish and other ME languages remained unchanged. But they also translated some of the person-names. For example Pippin - Red Cheeks (Punapõsk), Merry - Beauty (Ilo), Sam - well that i can't translate, it's just an Estonian name (Juss), Gollum - Guglunk. The names like Gandalf, Bilbo, Frodo etc remained the same. The most weird part is that in Hobbit they didn't do that - Bilbo Baggins was Bilbo Baggins, but in LOTR Bilbo Baggins suddenly is Bilbo Paunaste. That is rather confusing.
And in the movies they didn't stick completely to their book translation either, they used kind of mixture of English names and translated Estonian names.
How about other lanuages? Sweden? Finnish?

[Jonathan]

Nimphredil, check out my other thread, Different names in different languages. There you can find some Swedish and Finnish names. Be sure to contribute with some Estonian names too!

[Nimphredil]

Here are some of the Estonian names:

Bilbo, Frodo Baggins - Bilbo, Frodo Paunaste
Samwise "Sam" Gamgee - Tobajuss "Juss" Mängla (game means mäng in Estonian)
Meriadoc "Merry" Brandybuck - Ilomac "Ilo" Kangepukk
Pippin Took - Punapõsk Tukk
Treebeard - Puupard
Strider - Rühkija
Legolas Greenleaf - Legolas Roheleht
Hobbiton - Kääbikla
The Shire - Maakond
Wormtongue - Ussikeel
Rivendell - Kaljulõhe

and so on..

[Falagar]

English -- Norwegian:

Bilbo/Frodo Baggins -- Bilbo/Frodo Lommelund (don't ask )
Samwise 'Sam' Gamgee -- Samvis 'Sam' Gamgod
Rose Cotton -- Rosi Småtun
Meriadoc 'Merry' Brandybuck-- Meriadoc 'Munti' Brendibukk
Bag End -- Lommekroken
Hobbiton -- Hobbitun
The Shire -- Hobsyssel
Crickhollow -- Krikhølen
Treebeard -- Treskjegg

[Jonathan]

My god... Look at those Norwegian names! And I thought that the Swedish translator had changed the names much.
Baggins is Lommelund! The Shire is called Hobsyssel! Well, now I have something fun to tell all of my Swedish friends. It's always amusing to make fun of the Norwegians

[Orion]

It's always amusing to make fun of the Norwegians

In Finland we make fun also of the Swedish.. j/k.
The Estonian words sound nice, by the way, I can understand a lot of them too.

[Falagar]

My god... Look at those Norwegian names! And I thought that the Swedish translator had changed the names much.
Baggins is Lommelund! The Shire is called Hobsyssel! Well, now I have something fun to tell all of my Swedish friends. It's always amusing to make fun of the Norwegians

Hobsyssel:
Hob-shortend form of Hobbit.
syssel-a Norwegian word meaning something like "settlement"...

The Norwegian translator has altered many of the names, but he has always done much research before he altered them...

(bad excuse, I know )

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Falagar
Hobsyssel:
Hob-shortend form of Hobbit.
syssel-a Norwegian word meaning something like "settlement"...

The Norwegian translator has altered many of the names, but he has always done much research before he altered them...

(bad excuse, I know )

Yes, the Swedish translator did some research too when he altered the names of the characters. He wanted the names to mean about the same things as they meant in English. Example: Shadowfax = Skuggfaxe, where 'Skugg-' means 'Shadow'

In Swedish, Hobsyssel sounds almost like 'Hobbit business'

[Falagar]

Yes, the Swedish translator did some research too when he altered the names of the characters. He wanted the names to mean about the same things as they meant in English. Example: Shadowfax = Skuggfaxe, where 'Skugg-' means 'Shadow'

That's exactly the same name for Shadowfax as in the norwegian translation!

In Swedish, Hobsyssel sounds almost like 'Hobbit business'

[Nurvingiel]

I've started reading, quite ambitiously, Lord of the Rings in Swedish. (I saw the one book volume in a bookshop for only 99 SEK and absolutely couldn't resist.)

This thread is to discuss different aspects of the non-English versions of LotR. What languages has it been translated to? What comprehension difficulties does it pose?

I will follow this post with a list of all the proper nouns that were translated in the Swedish version. That is the biggest issue with this copy as many, you will see, do not make sense.

It's quite a hefty post, but this thread is not just for translating proper nouns. Discuss any issues/points of interest/ etc. to do with LotR in other languages.

Tolkien loved languages, and so do we!

[Jonathan]

You got the original translation, didn't you? Because there is a new translation that came last year (the new TTT came this year and they're about to re-release RotK).

The reason they're releasing a new translation of the trilogy was because the translator of the first Swedish LotR books took quite some freedoms, renaming things a bit as he liked. The Swedish translation was, after the Dutch, the first translation of the books to another language so of course there was some errors.Tolkien himself became upset and wrote a 'guide' to how his work should be translated into other languages. The people who have retranslated the trilogy into Swedish have followed Tolkien's guidelines to the last detail

Comprehension difficulties? Well in the first Swedish edition, the reader got the impression that it was actually Merry who killed the Nazgûl king, not Éowyn . This was fixed in later editions.

Check these threads out -
Quotes in different languages
and
Different names in different languages

[Nurvingiel]

No wonder it was so cheap! I must have the original version. And now, a list of all the liberties the original translator took with proper nouns...


After discovering Bilbo Baggins had been translated into Bilbo Bagger, I browsed through the copy to see what other proper nouns had been mangled. This book also has some very detailed maps at the back (much nicer than my Allen and Unwin copy, which also has one page missing), and I noticed practically all the place names were translated.

Grey_Wolf told me a lot of Swedish fans were upset at the translation (though he read it in English himself), and now I see why. Why would you translate proper nouns, especially when they were not originally in English? Baggins is not an English name, it is Westron. Probably the Westron version of Bilbo’s Hobbit name. How could the translator (Åke Ohlmarks) possibly have known how to translate it properly without Tolkien's input? The answer is clearly that he didn’t.

Who has read a non-English version of Lord of the Rings? Did you notice any weird translations?

I also know that Baggins is Pytlìk in the Czech version. I thought this was so hilarious I drew a cartoon about it. Pytlìk means "small sack" in Czech.

List of proper nouns "translated" into Swedish, with comments:

The ones that make sense:

The Shire – Fylke
This one makes sense since Fylke is an old word for county. (Thanks Grey_Wolf. )

Middle-earth – Midgård
Given many of Tolkien’s mythological sources, this one also makes sense. I think Midvärld (värld = world) would also have worked, but Midgård is nicer.

Young Tom – Lille-Tom
Jolly – Julle
Nick – Nicke


So very mangled

Baggins – Bagger
Why would you translage Baggins? If Åke Ohlmarks came to Canada I wouldn’t start calling him by some non-sensical English version of his name. I also wouldn’t make one up because there isn’t any English equivelant.

Bag End – Baggershus
This is sensible enough given that Baggins is "Bagger", but now Sharkey's End won't make any sense. Tolkien's languages and humour are both very subtle; they deserve careful and respectful handling.
Also, hus means house. Shouldn’t it have been hole or home instead?

Sackville-Baggins - Säcksta-Baggernas
“Säcksta” actually does mean "Sackville", I think, but “Baggernas”? Why wouldn't it be Bagger, for consistency purposes? Not that Bagger makes sense, obviously there is no equivelant to Baggins in Swedish.

The Brandywine river – Vinfloden
This is one of the worst ones. “Vin” means wine (and it replaces ‘Brandy’ here, apparently) and en flod is a large river. “Floden” works, but shoudn’t it be Floden Brandywine? This brings us to the worst translation I have found thus far…

Brandybuck – Vinbock
The meaning of “vinbock” is “wine he-goat” or “wine buck”. “Bock” is listed with three meanings in my dictionary, in order: he-goat, buck (animals) and bow (this one seems obscure). Bock can mean buck, but that’s not what buck in Brandybuck means. And the anger of Swedish fans becomes abundandly clear.

Brandy (the drink) in Swedish, is konjak. (Cognac is a type of brandy.) This would make more sense than “vin” at least, even though Brandybuck is obviously not talking about alcohol and ungulates.

Galadhrim – Galadrim
This, even more obviously than Westron names, was never an English word. There’s only the H missing, no big deal right? However, if he really wanted to make this name more phonetic, he should have put “Galathrim”. (I too was guilty of pronouncing it wrong before I read the Appendices, but one would expect the translator to not only read the Apeendeces, but also HoME, the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and The Hobbit.)

This is an indicator of how Elvish will be a bit messed up in the translation. I don’t have the English version here to compare, but there is a distinct lack of accents on the Is in the Elvish songs. Obviously foreign languages in the text should be left alone in a translation, since they are still foreign languages in the new version.


Relatively Harmless:

Arwen – Arven
This isn’t that big of a deal, but hasn’t poor Arwen been tormented enough already? W and V are, for all intents and purposes, the same letter in Swedish. So why change the W to a V, since it makes no real difference?

Gamgee – Gamgi
The Swedish “i” is often pronounced “ee”, so I suppose this makes a bit of sense. However, maybe they should have made it Ggamggi, since stand-alone Gs are usually not hard (Gamgi would probably be pronounced “Yamgee”). Just kidding, don’t do it Åke!

Mirkwood – Mörkmården
This half makes sense – “mörk” means “murky”. But the only entry I could find for “mård” is “marten” (as in the animal). What? Why not Mörkskog? (Skog means forest or wood.) Personally, I think Svartskog would be nice. “Svart” means black or dark.

Sandyman – Sandiman
Dale – Dal
Rosie – Rosa
Cotton - Kattun


Unsure:

Hobbits – Hoberna
I’m not completely sure if this is correct, since the Swedish title of “The Hobbit” is still “The Hobbit”. Maybe that translation was done by someone who handled proper nouns with a little more subtlety.

Hobbiton – Hobsala
I’m pretty sure. If this is the case, and the above translation is also right, shouldn’t it be Hobernastad or Hobernaborg or something? (I am confused.)


Anyone who has already read the Swedish version feel free to contribute! (I’m sure there are more.)

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I've started reading, quite ambitiously, Lord of the Rings in Swedish. (I saw the one book volume in a bookshop for only 99 SEK and absolutely couldn't resist.)

This thread is to discuss different aspects of the non-English versions of LotR. What languages has it been translated to? What comprehension difficulties does it pose?

I will follow this post with a list of all the proper nouns that were translated in the Swedish version. That is the biggest issue with this copy as many, you will see, do not make sense.

It's quite a hefty post, but this thread is not just for translating proper nouns. Discuss any issues/points of interest/ etc. to do with LotR in other languages.

Tolkien loved languages, and so do we!

I have seen LOTR translated into Greek. (Actually it was only the FOTR.) It cost about 12€. I did not read it, since it was in a bookstore and I was on vacation. Besides, it may have taken me half of the 4th Age to read just FOTR in Greek.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Grey_Wolf told me a lot of Swedish fans were upset at the translation (though he read it in English himself), and now I see why. Why would you translate proper nouns, especially when they were not originally in English? Baggins is not an English name, it is Westron. Probably the Westron version of Bilbo’s Hobbit name. How could the translator (Åke Ohlmarks) possibly have known how to translate it properly without Tolkien's input? The answer is clearly that he didn’t.

Actually Tolkien wanted foreign translators to make up new names for the characters. Many of the names are English-sounding and he did not mean for them to sound English if his books were translated into other languages. For instance, Tolkien said that the name Baggins are supposed to make you think of a bag. So in the new version of the Swedish LotR trilogy, the Baggins (that Åke Ohlmarks had named Bagger, which makes you think of a ram rather than a bag ) are now know as Secker, since säck means bag.

Some translators have done what Tolkien wanted and translated the names into their respective languages - others have not (or have made up really weird names).

[Fat middle]

ADMIN NOTE: SGH asked me to merge this three threads, since them all have the same topic. I've merged them by chronoligical order, but I've kept the name of the last one. Hope it makes sense for you all.
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I'll try and come tomorrow with a few names from the Spanish translation

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Fat middle

ADMIN NOTE: SGH asked me to merge this three threads, since them all have the same topic. I've merged them by chronoligical order, but I've kept the name of the last one. Hope it makes sense for you all.
____________________________


I'll try and come tomorrow with a few names from the Spanish translation

Thank you FM. Is this okay for you Nurv?

[Nurvingiel]

That's fine with me! (Yay, I got to name the thread! )

I'm looking forward to see how Frodo Baggins comes out in Spanish.

Here are some useful Swedish words for your reading purposes... en alv - an elf, and en dvärg - a dwarf. For a language that allegedly has "ett" for 3/4 of the words, there are a lot of "en" words.