Most valiant?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by jammi567

a hell of a lot of mental strengh and valar to maintain, in my opinion.

A hell of a lot of Valar? How many? And which ones?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

But nevertheless he did not go. Did not he?
What was holding him to take another boat and to catch up with Frodo and Sam? He could find them, he was a ranger, and was familiar with surroundings more than Gandalf. What was more important: to save the world or to save two bumling hobbits, who perfectly managed to free themselves without Aragorn's help? Valiant? Not in this case.

I think, Aragorn never intended to go to Mordor, neither did he change his mind after Gandalf fell. And valiance, or absence thereof, had nothing to do with it.

I think, that was because neither Gandalf, nor Aragorn, nor any of the "big people" were to go to Mt Doom according to the original plan. And there HAD to be an original plan agreed upon by the Wise.

I think, at Path Galen, or even earlier, the Fellowship had to be split: 4 hobbits going to Mordor, and 5 Big people to Gondor.

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

A hell of a lot of Valar? How many? And which ones?

valar = bravery

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think, that because neither Gandalf, nor Aragorn, nor any of the "big people" were to go to Mt Doom according to the original plan. And there HAD to be an original plan agreed upon by the Wise.

Agree. The plan has been to send helpless hobbits to Mordor alone, but they did not get informed about this plan. Aragorn was going to Gondor with Boromir, that was clear from the beginning, but Frodo was counting at least on Gandalf to accompany him. Nevertheless, Gandalf have never revealed the original plan of the Wise.We must go down the Silverlode into the secret woods, and so to the Great River, and then …" (LOTR. Book II, chapt. III)...slyly are getting silent about what will happen after Lorien.
I think,that it's because ,according to decision of the Wise, after getting out of Lorien's domain, the Ring had to dissapear.
As I said before , the plan did not work out because of Boromir, whom I consider the most valiant person.
My favorite portrayals of Boromir made by Polish artist Catherine Karina Chmiel. In her works he lives, has charcter, feelings, and not like depicted by some artists a big bore with ridiculous horned helmet.

[Landroval]

I think, at Path Galen, or even earlier, the Fellowship had to be split: 4 hobbits going to Mordor, and 5 Big people to Gondor.

Why? Why accompany the hobbits anyway? Was the road afterwards any easier? I really don't see the logic of this "conspiracy".

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Why? Why accompany the hobbits anyway? Was the road afterwards any easier? I really don't see the logic of this "conspiracy".

I will answer with question. Why particularly the hobbits?
Why THEY had to clean the mess created by Elves?
And why everyone else in the Fellowship, even Gandalf, whose mission was exclusively in aiding in Sauron's downfall, were free to drop out from the quest any time they want, and only the hobbits has to carry on the burden.
What kind of bullshit Elrond was hanging on big trusty hobbit's ears, profoundly declaring:"It is fate that the HOBBITS should rid the world of it".. (HOME,"The Retutn of the Shadow") ?
Who desided on this "fate"?
No, it's no conspiracy, it's a very logical politic, a customary Elve's disposition to do theirs job by somebody's else hands.

[Landroval]

I will answer with question.

Why particularly the hobbits?

Because they were probably the most resistant race to the ring.

And why everyone else in the Fellowship, even Gandalf, whose mission was exclusively in aiding in Sauron's downfall, were free to drop out from the quest any time they want, and only the hobbits has to carry on the burden.

Because what the Fellowship didn't rely on strength or numbers, but on Hope, the only thing that, I would say, is required of the Children of Eru; as Aragorn states, "there are other powers at work". Furthermore, even of Frodo, it is stated in letter #246 that: "His real contract was only to do what he could, to try to find a way, and to go as far on the road as his strength of mind and body allowed."

What kind of ******** Elrond was hanging on big trusty hobbit's ears, profoundly declaring:"It is fate that the HOBBITS should rid the world of it".. (HOME,"The Retutn of the Shadow") ?

I would appreciate if you would be more polite. In judging this matter, we should have in mind what Tolkien stated in letter #181: "the main narrative... is planned to be 'hobbito-centric', that is, primarily a study of the ennoblement (or sanctification) of the humble". I would say this is what primarily justifies Elrond's words at the Council:

This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck?

Who desided on this "fate"?

Generally, Eru; he retains all ultimate authority and everything depends on him, in every moment.

No, it's no conspiracy, it's a very logical politic, a customary Elve's disposition to do theirs job by somebody's else hands.

Elrond intended for three elves to be part of the fellowship, so your idea doesn't hold water. And I am curious, what jobs (of the elves) were done by non-elves?

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Olmer

I will answer with question. Why particularly the hobbits?

+1 to the prior post, and I'll add:

"[T]hat is not for us to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Because what the Fellowship didn't rely on strength or numbers, but on Hope, the only thing that, I would say, is required of the Children of Eru; as Aragorn states, "there are other powers at work"

Hope is required in this case. Gandalf knew that Frodo was incapable of destroying the Ring on his own, so, without hope, he would had to have assumed that the mission would fail. But hope is not the only requirement. If it was, they could have simply thrown the Ring in the air and hoped that Manwe’s winds carried it to the Cracks of Doom.

Also needed were things such as planning, courage, and effort.

“All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

"His real contract was only to do what he could, to try to find a way, and to go as far on the road as his strength of mind and body allowed."

Originally Posted by Landroval

In judging this matter, we should have in mind what Tolkien stated in letter #181: "the main narrative... is planned to be 'hobbito-centric', that is, primarily a study of the ennoblement (or sanctification) of the humble".

I believe that Olmer was looking for a story-internal answer.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Generally, Eru; he retains all ultimate authority and everything depends on him, in every moment.

As I read it, Olmer wasn’t questioning this. He was questioning; Elrond’s claim to know fate, Elrond’s motivations, or (most likely) both. Elrond had some foresight, but it was neither complete or totally accurate.

This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck?

Originally Posted by Landroval

And I am curious, what jobs (of the elves) were done by non-elves?

I have to question that myself. I would say that the Elves were often uninvolved (or under-involved) when they probably shouldn’t have been, but I don’t recall any other cases when a non-elf performed what should have been an Elvish job.

[Jon S.]

Another thought as to why the hobbits - perhaps it was about time they contributed something back to the other peoples of Middle Earth who for centuries did everything from absorbing the brunt of the evil in the world to actively guarding their borders so that the Hobbits could enjoy their blissful, ignorant peace. (Plus, if you go by the majority viewpoint, the Hobbits were, biologically, essentially a branch of man anyways, right?)

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Another thought as to why the hobbits - perhaps it was about time they contributed something back to the other peoples of Middle Earth who for centuries did everything from absorbing the brunt of the evil in the world to actively guarding their borders so that the Hobbits could enjoy their blissful, ignorant peace. (Plus, if you go by the majority viewpoint, the Hobbits were, biologically, essentially a branch of man anyways, right?)

Lousy freeloaders. Yeah, I’d say that this makes sense (mostly in a story-external way).

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Why THEY had to clean the mess created by Elves?
No, it's no conspiracy, it's a very logical politic, a customary Elve's disposition to do theirs job by somebody's else hands.

Originally Posted by Landroval

And I am curious, what jobs (of the elves) were done by non-elves?

Why, almost everything Men did against Sauron in the Second and the Third Age was Elves's job by right!

In the matter of the Rings, the Noldor were guilty as hell. More so than with the Silmarils.

Celebrimbor, a Calaquendi Noldorin Elf, made all the Rings, except the One. It he didn't make the 19, there would have been no One.

After Sauron's plan with the Ruling Ring had been revealed, Celebrimbor and Galadriel had all the 19 Rings in their possession for almost 100 years. They knew they should have destroyed the 19, but they "failed to find the strength" (UT). Moral strength, mind you, they did have physical means, but Celebrimbor became as enamoured with his creation, as Feanor, his granddad, with Silmarils. And Galadriel so loved the shiny little ringy that Celebrimbor presented her with...And she so wished to make a little realm for herself that would resemble Valinor.

Selfish? Incredibly. They put the whole World in peril for their baubles.

Now they could have hidden the 7 and the 9, as they had hidden the Three. They had 100 years to do so. They could have sent the Rings to Valinor, or sent them to the Havens. No. - too lazy for that. All the Rings, but the Three, were still kept in Ost-in Edhil, when Sauron finally decided to attack. And the Mirdain were beaten of course, as well as Gil-Galad and Elrond, who had little to do with the Ring-Project.

Who saved the Elves then? Right, the King of Numenor, Tar-Minastir, who sent Numenoreans to war for the first time in 1500 years. How many died? Not a few, believe me. Little did Minastir suspect that his allies the Elves had betrayed all the Free Peoples of ME already, and now were trying to hide behind Men's backs. What did the King get for his aid? Three of his close relatives were ensnared by the Rings and became nazgul. Numenor itself fell under the Shadow. Thank you very much.

At the Downfall, the evil Maia Sauron finally perished. The whole of Numenor perished with him, but at least Men believed they saw the last of him. Now, in about a hundred years he is back and attacks Gondor. How so? Because he has the Ring. Thanks again to Celebrimbor and his friendship with Annatar.

Now the Elves finally decided to help, probably because now they were led by the least guilty of them - Gil-Galad. The Last Alliance also cost many lives. And then Elves stopped helping. They knew that because of their Ring-Scheme Sauron was bound to re-appear again. He reappeared - right across the River from Lorien and not too far from Imladris. Still they waited and did nothing. And most sailed to Valinor, leaving Men to deal with the consequences of their faults. Then, when the White counsil decided to attack (or threatened to attack) Dol Guldur, all they did was to sent Sauron harass the unsuspecting Gondor. Who cares for Men anyway?

And that was only the Ring-Project. How about the Palantiri? Another set of Elvish baubles, perilous for Men. How many men's lives would have been saved if there were no Seeing Stone at Amon-Sul? Rhudaur, Cardolan and Arthedain warred over it constantly. Probably Fornost wouldn't have been so attractive for the Witch-King, if it didn't house two stones. Minas Ithil wouldn't have been attacked, Denethor would have remained sane. Saruman would not have become a traitor. Thank you, Elves, for this gift also.

Now, let us face the facts: the strength Sauron gained in the Second Age and his very existence in the Third Age is Elven fault. Yet they left Men to deal with the consequences.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by jammi567

valar = bravery

Valour, dear Jammi. Or Valor. But not Valar.

[Landroval]

It he didn't make the 19, there would have been no One.

I presume you can back this opinion with some facts?

At the Downfall, the evil Maia Sauron finally perished. The whole of Numenor perished with him, but at least Men believed they saw the last of him. Now, in about a hundred years he is back and attacks Gondor. How so? Because he has the Ring. Thanks again to Celebrimbor and his friendship with Annatar.

No, that is due to his maiar nature; as the Akallabeth states on this matter, "he was not of mortal flesh".

How about the Palantiri?

Yes, what about them? Did Men do anything about them that the elves should have done? How come the palantirs were the responsibility of the elves, once they were received by the numenoreans? Also, by their use, "they long guarded and united the realm of Gondor"; also, by the use of the palantir, Aragorn is able to bait Sauron.

Yet they left Men to deal with the consequences.

You seem to forget that it was Isildur who didn't listen to the counsels of Elrond and Cirdan to destroy the ring.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I presume you can back this opinion with some facts?

It Sauron could make ALL the Rings all by himself, why bother dealing with the Mirdain? And how there could be the Ruling Ring if there were no lesser rings to rule?

No, that is due to his maiar nature; as the Akallabeth states on this matter, "he was not of mortal flesh".

Of course he was not of mortal flesh, he was a Maia. And he was not of mortal flesh back in the First Age when Luthien threatened to kill him. That made him afraid - and why would he be, if he were able to be re-fleshed immediately? Nay, without the Ring, he probably would have remained just a powerless spirit. That has finally happened to him, when the One was destroyed. And it should have happened much earlier - at the Downfall and at the battle at Orodruin. But for the One.

The full quote is:

But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure.

He was not of mortal flesh - so he didn't die as a mortal would, but his spirit returned to ME. There with the help of the Ring he wrought himself a new shape. That would have been impossible, of would have taken millennia - without the One.

Originally Posted by Landroval

How come the palantirs were the responsibility of the elves, once they were received by the numenoreans? Also, by their use, "they long guarded and united the realm of Gondor"; also, by the use of the palantir, Aragorn is able to bait Sauron.

It was another example of Elven toys perilous for mortals. The Elves were foolish to make such presents.

Originally Posted by Landroval

You seem to forget that it was Isildur who didn't listen to the counsels of Elrond and Cirdan to destroy the ring.

And you forget that NO ONE was able to destroy the Ring willingly. Not even Gandalf, not even Elrond himself, not even Frodo. Blaming Isildur was blatant hypocrisy on Elrond's part.

[Landroval]

It Sauron could make ALL the Rings all by himself, why bother dealing with the Mirdain?

Because it was handy having the most skilled crafters work for him.

And how there could be the Ruling Ring if there were no lesser rings to rule?

Hm, even though the ring does wield a good deal of power by itself, you may be right; will have to think about that.

And he was not of mortal flesh back in the First Age when Luthien threatened to kill him. That made him afraid - and why would he be, if he were able to be re-fleshed immediately?

Luthien actually threatened Sauron with something else - being sent disembodied to Melkor, for eternal scorn:

Originally Posted by Of Beren and Luthien, Silmarillion

Ere his foul spirit left its dark house, Luthien came to him, ghost be sent quaking back to Morgoth; and she said: 'There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower.'

Nay, without the Ring, he probably would have remained just a powerless spirit.

It is in the power of the ainur who entered Ea to array themselves with bodies analogous to our clothes. To say that reimbodiment was beyond Sauron's power, if he didn't have the ring, is pure speculation.

That would have been impossible, of would have taken millennia - without the One.

These look like personal opinions stated as facts.

The Elves were foolish to make such presents.

Whether or not the palantirs brought about more evil or good is a matter of debate. You still haven't said what deeds of Men concerning the palantirs were supposed to be done by the elves.

And you forget that NO ONE was able to destroy the Ring willingly. Not even Gandalf, not even Elrond himself, not even Frodo.

More speculations, unfounded, I might say. If either Gandalf or Elrond knew that the ring cannot be destroyed by even them, I doubt they would have agreed to send anyone weaker than them. Moreover, in letter #246, Tolkien says that should Sam had not alienated Gollum, Gollum would have sacrificed himself for Frodo, casting himself "voluntarily" with the ring into the fire - the same would have done Frodo, had he not been attacked.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Because they were probably the most resistant race to the ring.

A popular misconception, based on misleading words of the originators of the quest .
No, they were not resistant, but more naive, easier to manipulate.They were falling under Ring's influence with the same rate as Men. Look what have happened to Smeagol, and how fast Frodo became drained out and posessive with "prec-c-cious".
The most resistant race were dwarves. But try to pull a dwarf out of his mountain in the name of the world's saving from Sauron's total dominion!! They did not care, they were content as they were, and wouldn't move a finger to aid elves.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Elrond intended for three elves to be part of the fellowship, so your idea doesn't hold water.

Oh, yes, he CONSIDERED this, but seems to me he did not insist on it too firmly or tenaciously
"It's a dangerous road. The evil Nine Riders will be agaist you. You will face a lot of perils.You can't replace the skillfull in fights, strong and wise Elves which will protect Frodo from the harm and made his quest successful. I forsee that the two bumbling hobbits will seriously undermine the whole idea of the quest's speed and secrecy... "
"But we want to go on an adventure!"..
"O'key! Your reasons are very convincing.You will go - elves stay "
So, whose words does not hold the water?

Originally Posted by Jon S

"That is not for us to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

Aha…Similar to if I will lock on your hand an uranium bracelet, because you are the most resistant to radiation, and then will say to you that it’s fate, and now you “have to decide what to do with the time that is given to“ you.

Originally Posted by CAB

I believe that Olmer was looking for a story-internal answer

Exactly, CAB!
Let’s not forget that history of Arda is an authentic.Tolkien did not create Arda, this world existed before in legends and epos of the Northern part of Europe. By his own believe his work was a co-creation with divine power of the Creator himself : “a sudden vision or perhaps a perception which at once turned itself into pictorial form in my mind” and “all of the sudden I realized what it was: the very thing that I have been trying to write about and explain”.
But an authenticy does not mean an accuracy.On his writing of the book Tolkien not once comments that even to him some sides of his world not completely clear and understandable, it sometimes " getting quite out of hand... and progress towards quite unforeseen goals" . In variations of his texts he himself is trying to figure out illogical parts, representing himself not as an author, but as a tolkienist-researcher.
So, I absolutely agree with Gordis that his letters and autocommentaries shouldn’t be accepted as a canon, (which is so pleasing to Landroval’s heart), but as an opportunity to analyse the events from different aspects, and make out more probable and less irrational explanations, which is called a historical way of research. And, as we all know, an interpretation of the history depends on the view of the chronicler, and it up to us to accept it as it was written, or, by analising inconsistencies, to find out the more real internal explanations of the events.



.

[Landroval]

A popular misconception, based on misleading words of the originators of the quest .

Amusing

They were falling under Ring's influence with the same rate as Men

Men became ringwraiths by simply using rings of power; none of the hobbits became a wraith after using the One Ring (and one of them used it for some 4 centuries, IIRC).

how fast Frodo became drained out

That "draining out" is due to several factors, the vicinity to Sauron, the hardships of the road, lack of proper supplies, etc. He was fine and dandy as long as he stayed in the Shire.

The most resistant race were dwarves.

It is a matter of debate; as far as I know, Tolkien only addressed their relation with rings of power, not with the One Ring; and even the rings of power brought about good profits for Sauron.

But try to pull a dwarf out of his mountain in the name of the world's saving from Sauron's total dominion!! They did not care, they were content as they were, and wouldn't move a finger to aid elves.

So, Gimli is... what?

Oh, yes, he CONSIDERED this, but seems to me he did not insist on it too firmly or tenaciously

Because Gandalf advised him so. Are you implying Elrond is a hypocrite?

“a sudden vision or perhaps a perception which at once turned itself into pictorial form in my mind”

Tolkien is talking about a vision of guardian angel

“all of the sudden I realized what it was: the very thing that I have been trying to write about and explain”.

And here he is talking about the On fairy stories essay; none of these relate to Arda. The context in which you presented these quotes is misleading at best.

his letters and autocommentaries shouldn’t be accepted as a canon

The letters hardly are in disagreement with LotR or the Hobbit, they merely explain certain thoughts of the author.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Hm, even though the ring does wield a good deal of power by itself,

I see it like that: The One Ring contains a part of Sauron's innate power and will. The One Ring itself, when made, didn't aid power to Sauron: it was a part of him set aside, compartmentalized.

If Sauron hoped to became more powerful, after completing the Ring-Project, it was because via the One, he planned to gain access to the power of all the other 19 Rings, wielded by others, even those made without his aid. I believe that Celebrimbor and other Mirdain, when making the Rings, also had to set aside part of their innate Power into the Rings. That is that additional power Sauron was craving.

That's why Sauron was so frustrated when the Elves took off their rings - Sauron remained with only the power he had originally. It was vital to him for other Rings to be wielded - just to have additional power. Another reason was the possibility of ensnaring and corruption of the wielders, of course.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Luthien actually threatened Sauron with something else - being sent disembodied to Melkor, for eternal scorn:

You should realise, Landroval, that the quote above supports my point, not yours. Why would Sauron's fea remain naked "everlastingly", if he were able to flesh himself again just in a matter of days, or years?

And, as for Morgoth's scorn, do you think that Sauron, having cowardly surrendered his stronghold to a single female helped by a dog, saved himself from Morgoth's "disapproval"? I would say, by running away, he only made his case worse in the eyes of his Lord.

What Sauron was really afraid of, was being left a mere powerless spirit: the very thing that has happened to him at the end of the Third Age. The same thing happened to other embodied Maiar, when slain: to Saruman, to the Barlog, most probably, as well. It would have happened to Gandalf, but for the intervention from High-Up.

Originally Posted by Landroval

It is in the power of the ainur who entered Ea to array themselves with bodies analogous to our clothes. To say that reimbodiment was beyond Sauron's power, if he didn't have the ring, is pure speculation. ... These look like personal opinions stated as facts.

No, it is not.

Myths Transformed: Melkor had corrupted many spirits — some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically

Originally Posted by Landroval

More speculations, unfounded, I might say. If either Gandalf or Elrond knew that the ring cannot be destroyed by even them, I doubt they would have agreed to send anyone weaker than them.

Unfounded, eh?

L #246: it became at last quite clear that Frodo after all that had happened would be incapable of voluntarily destroying the Ring.... At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum – impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist, certainly after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted.

That was from the Letters you love so much. And here is from LOTR (that you seem to disregard for some reason):

He weighed the Ring in his hand, hesitating, and forcing himself to remember all that Gandalf had told him; and then with an effort of will he made a movement, as if to cast it away - but he found that he had put it back in his pocket.
Gandalf laughed grimly. ‘You see? Already you too, Frodo, cannot easily let it go, nor will to damage it.
‘I do really wish to destroy it!’ cried Frodo. ‘Or, well, to have it destroyed. I am not made for perilous quests. I wish I had never seen the Ring! Why did it come to me? Why was I chosen?’
‘Such questions cannot be answered,’ said Gandalf. ‘You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess: not for power or wisdom, at any rate. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.’
‘But I have so little of any of these things! You are wise and powerful. Will you not take the Ring?’
‘No!’ cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. ‘With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly.’ His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. ‘Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great, for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me.’

.

Gandald admits he will not be able to carry the Ring to Mt.Doom and destroy it. The temptation to use it will be too strong. So why was Frodo chosen? Because he was weak and not ambitious and the wish to wield the Ring would not be too strong - that is the core of the "famous hobbit resistance".

Originally Posted by Landroval

Moreover, in letter #246, Tolkien says that should Sam had not alienated Gollum, Gollum would have sacrificed himself for Frodo, casting himself "voluntarily" with the ring into the fire - the same would have done Frodo, had he not been attacked.

Not exactly. Tolkien says that if Sam had not alienated Gollum, Gollum wouldn't led them to Shelob:

L#246: For me perhaps the most tragic moment in the Tale comes in II 323 ff. when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum's tone and aspect. 'Nothing, nothing', said Gollum softly. 'Nice master!'. His repentance is blighted and all Frodo's pity is (in a sense) wasted. Shelob's lair became inevitable.

And then:

If he had, what could then have happened? The course of the entry into Mordor and the struggle to reach Mount Doom would have been different, and so would the ending. The interest would have shifted to Gollum, I think, and the battle that would have gone on between his repentance and his new love on one side and the Ring. Though the love would have been strengthened daily it could not have wrested the mastery from the Ring. I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both. Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale). But 'possession' satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo's sake and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss.

So, first he would steal the Ring and never give it back, neither to Frodo, nor to Sauron. So the only way left to him would be to die with his Precious.

What do you think Gollum would have done, if he hadn't slipped? The nazgul would appear at Sammath Naur and block the exit. What was Gollum's only way to guard his Precious? He would have jumped into the fire, IMHO, his love for Frodo having nothing to do with it, and his love for the Precious - everything.

But dying still clutching the Ring is NOT the same as throwing it into the Fire. Far from it.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Olmer

A popular misconception, based on misleading words of the originators of the quest .
No, they were not resistant, but more naive, easier to manipulate.They were falling under Ring's influence with the same rate as Men. Look what have happened to Smeagol, and how fast Frodo became drained out and posessive with "prec-c-cious".
The most resistant race were dwarves. But try to pull a dwarf out of his mountain in the name of the world's saving from Sauron's total dominion!! They did not care, they were content as they were, and wouldn't move a finger to aid elves.

I definitely think that Olmer is right here. Maybe a Hobbit was the best choice to carry the Ring, but it wouldn’t have been because his race was the most resistant. Dwarves weren’t made invisible, or wraiths, or servants of Sauron, or immortal by the rings. There is even a case of a Dwarf giving up a great ring, unaided.

Originally Posted by Olmer

What kind of ******** Elrond was hanging on big trusty hobbit's ears, profoundly declaring:"It is fate that the HOBBITS should rid the world of it".. (HOME,"The Retutn of the Shadow") ?
Who desided on this "fate"?

I’ve had a bit of a change of heart regarding this question. Wasn’t the decision that a Hobbit would carry the Ring really made when Bilbo found it in the Orc’s caves? Wasn’t this probably Eru’s will at work? Frodo seems to have been destined to possess the Ring (and also would have been unable to willingly give it up). Elrond probably read things this way, and so, proclaimed it fate.