Snowstorm at the Redhorn Pass

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

That they would risk the mines - and also, thereby, the Ring - was just not something I thought Saruman was expecting.

I agree with you there and I would guess that Gandalf did too. It would be pretty hard to avoid an ambush if the enemy knew that you would be coming out of a particular door at some not too far off time.

Originally Posted by Jon S.

To those of you who ruled out Saruman as the cause: on what grounds?

My thinking, when this thread was first active, was that the maker of the snowstorm had to be someone on site. The weather seems to "react" too quickly to the movements of the company to be controlled this way by someone having messages relayed to him by birds over miles and miles. But, looking at it now, with his Palantir this wouldn't be an issue for Saruman. On the other hand, if he spotted the company with his Palantir, then he should have known that they would be coming out of (or be lost in) Moria, and should have had forces waiting for them (or at least in route to Moria if the distance was too great) on the other side.

I wouldn't completely rule Saurman out, but I still think the most logical explanation is that the power that gave the company trouble was the same one that had given Caradhras an evil reputation for thousands of years. There is no indication that the crebain spotted the company, at least (and even then only possibly) until they were coming down from the pass and it seems pretty clear to me that Saruman never saw the company in his Palantir.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

To those of you who ruled out Saruman as the cause: on what grounds?

On the ground that they were FORBIDDEN to show their real nature.They were supposed to be the wise men, nothing more. Althought from time to time Gandalf was happily breaking the rules just to boast up his inflating ego.
On contrary we know not a single fact that Saruman ever used his hidden power. Seems he was more disciplined emissary than Gandalf, who IMHO was putting on the blame on Saruman, making up the story about his malice just to say:" He did it too!"...
As far as I know it could be Gandalf himself who made a stone avalanche, remember, his original plan was to go through the Moria and he was INSISTING on this plan.

[Jon S.]

You are definitely the most entertaining poster on this board, Olmert (seriously, I mean this as a compliment!).

Come on! You can't seriously be pointing to Saruman as a paragon of how to respect your charge from the Higher Authorities! He's just about the last ME character you could characterize that way. If anyone would break his vows to cause the avalanche, Saruman was the one.

Next thing you'll be telling us Gandalf caused the whole thing just to save the cost of a hair salon lightening and a new white suit!

[Olmer]

Aghm... thanks for the compliment. As long as you are not taking me as a local jester...

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Next thing you'll be telling us Gandalf caused the whole thing just to save the cost of a hair salon lightening and a new white suit!

Actually, you are not too far off the target.
I have a theory that Gandi made an agreement with Sau to stage a Grand Finale with an effective departure of Sauron.Of course, each of them had different agendas, but a successfull ending of the Age of the Rings was suiting them both.

If anyone would break his vows to cause the avalanche, Saruman was the one.

What made you to think so?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

I agree with you there and I would guess that Gandalf did too. It would be pretty hard to avoid an ambush if the enemy knew that you would be coming out of a particular door at some not too far off time.

That is a clever observation - and I think it rules out not so much Saruman, but Sauron. Saruman could not have had enough time to gather a force and bring it to the West door, but Sauron, had he known that the Ring had entered Moria, would have sent all the available nazgul to wait by the door. It was mid-January. The Fell beast research project was already well underway.

That brings up another question: did Saruman suspect WHERE was the Fellowship going and what for?
We are told that Sauron never considered the possibility of his enemies trying to destroy the Ring - so he likely thought that the Ring was travelling to Lorien, no further, to be given to Galadriel.
But Saruman?
He was a long-time member and head of the White council, Rings were repeatedly discussed, he should have heard Elrond lamenting: "Why didn't Isildur throw the ring into Mt.Doom? I told him to, but he wouldn't listen." And the other Wise nodding : "Pity, pity..."
So, Saruman likely had a much better idea where to stop the Fellowship and a lot more time to prepare.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Saruman could not have had enough time to gather a force and bring it to the West door, but Sauron, had he known that the Ring had entered Moria, would have sent all the available nazgul to wait by the door.

Both of them have had enough time to bring to Moria a "great troop of orcs" through the East gate just not long before the company has entered the underground.The troop went along the eastern skirts of mountains, so their starting point could be Mordor or Isengard.
But I, too, think that it was not Sauron's order, and not because of the absence of Nazgul (maybe he wanted the Ring to get to Galadriel), but because Saruman had a priority to gather more information and personally knew the creator of the Strategic Plan, therefore he was aware of the choices presented to Gandalf & Co., and made sure that he is ready for any of them. The orc's troop on the eastern side was sent to watch the pass and the Moria's doors.
Furthermore, unlike Sauron, he definately knew which one of the four hobbits is the ringbearer and gave a detailed description. This why his emissary-assasin went not for Aragorn or Boromir, not for Sam, who was right next to Frodo, but sacrificed his life in order to bring down exactly Frodo .
So, yes, it's Saruman who was genuinely interested in the Ring's acquirung, Sauron just feigned the interest.

[Gordis]

I think we have already discussed this troop of orcs that entered Moria from the East rather long before the Fellowship entered it.

Haldir: We have been keeping watch on the rivers, ever since we saw a great troop of Orcs going north toward Moria, along the skirts of the mountains, many days ago.

Perhaps they were sent to search for Gollum. Everyone from Mordor was looking for him back in autumn, nazgul included.
The orc you refer to, Olmer, was also likely from Mordor: ("And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor.") He had none of distinctive features of Sarumans uruks, no long sword, but a scimitar like all Mordor orcs. I guess he was one much like Grishnakh or Shagrat - the commander of the Mordor troop in Moria.

which one of the four hobbits is the ringbearer and gave a detailed description

This seems next to impossible to me. To an orc, and likely also to most Men, all the hobbits looked very much alike. Grishnakh seemed to be fully instructed, and he could get Frodo's detailed description from the nazgul - yet he never knew that he got wrong hobbits. "One of them midgets" seems as accurate a description as possible.

but sacrificed his life in order to bring exactly Frodo down.

Perhaps the Ring called to him?

[Gordis]

bump!

[Ant]

Just a note of potential interest that may well be completely irrlevant, but was it in the Hobbit that there were (mountain) giants hurling rocks around in the mountains, and seemingly for no other reason than leisure?

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Ant

Just a note of potential interest that may well be completely irrlevant, but was it in the Hobbit that there were (mountain) giants hurling rocks around in the mountains, and seemingly for no other reason than leisure?

IIRC, I think you are correct.

In the hobbit video game, they even had a section with the giants hurling stones at you while you were trying to pass through the mountain pass. It was not easy.

[Olmer]

So, we are back again to my and CAB's suggestions about the independent entities.
Let's go on a second round!!

[Gordis]

I have bumped the thread to let Ant and Noble Elf Lord try to persuade us that it was Saruman who made the storm.

[Attalus]

Waiting.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I have bumped the thread to let Ant and Noble Elf Lord try to persuade us that it was Saruman who made the storm.

But there WAS no storm.



Saruman CONVINCED the members of the Fellowship that there was!

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Well, if the Istari were capable of group hypnosis then Gandalf is a more likely culprit. After all, he was right there with the group.

[The Gaffer]

Just re-read this bit from TTT:

Originally Posted by Gandalf

Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he.

[Attalus]

Contra the movies, I have never thought thaat Saruman was responsible for the storm on Carhadras. Gimli blamed the mountain itself, and I am inclined to agree. After all, Tom Bombadiil said "I am no weather-master, and naught is that goes on two legs."

[Alcuin]

Gandalf believes Sauron responsible in FotR:

“I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy,” said Boromir. "They say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upon the borders of Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies.”

“His arm has grown long indeed,” said Gimli, “if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three hundred leagues away.”

“His arm has grown long,” said Gandalf.

Remember, the day before, they had met the werewolves, and Sauron was Lord of Werewolves. Sauron had already located them and was pursuing them. Haldir later told the Company that orcs had passed up the Silverlode toward Moria about this time, which would have cut them off on the other side of the Redhorn Gate (Pass).

Is Gandalf wrong? Or did the mountain do them a favor by driving them underground, so that they avoided Sauron’s orcs waiting for them on the other side?

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Valandil

But there WAS no storm.



Saruman CONVINCED the members of the Fellowship that there was!

If that was meant for me then - touche!

If not, then never mind.

[Ant]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I have bumped the thread to let Ant and Noble Elf Lord try to persuade us that it was Saruman who made the storm.

Actually, I never said that it was Saruman. :P I used Saruman as an example for another argument. Gotta admit though, my memories of the LOTR's are plagued by the dumb ass movie.

There's lots of good points here though, but some of the potential perpatrators named I would say a definate Nay to.

Sauron: Well, it -could- have been Sauron I guess, but personally I don't think that such tactics are really Saurons style.

The Balrog: Definate nay for me. As with Sauron, it aint his style and not only that, but when ya read over all the evidence and what the Balrog is it simply dosent add up. (another point here is that many peoples view of the balrog was permanently clouded by Peter Jackson and all of those. The Balrog was around 7-8 feet tall and looked rather different to the 'cool' beast we see. Where the huge demon of the movies came from I don't know)

Saruman: Possibly. My argument here is that Saruman has methods of persausion. A point I made in another thread is that it could be believed that Tom Bombadil is actually representative of the Sun and Goldberry of the rain (Reread all to do with Bombadil and Goldberry with that in mind. All most certainly not though) and if Bombadil was the Sun, then some other unknown entity may well be the snow and Saruman may have used his powers of persasion on him. Entirely speculative though.

Some other entity/ the mountain itself: For me this is the most likely and could also tie in with the Saruman theory. Tolkien gives life to all things. The trees, plants, weather, rocks...everything. So why would Caradhras be any different? Gimli and the dwarves refer to the mountain as a person, but then again, they are dwarves. The manner in which the mountain acts and thinks is really unimportant. There are trees that have grown to hate all living things, so perhaps the mountain has too. I imagine that he wouldn't like the fact that his insides are full of orcs....maybe he wanted the company to go inside and clear the orcs and Balrog out A task they failed.

I mentioned the giants from the hobbit earlier too. I suppose we will never know Tolkiens intentions for many many things in the books. He was a perfectionist and while he dosen't tell us everything that happens, you can be almost certain that he had everything firmly set in his mind.