Muslims

[jerseydevil]

A buncha nutcases that commited that evil act on 9/11 caused this country to unite and then call for arms against a common enemy, cant that too be applied? or is just unacceptable because they dont have the means to go about it without all the high tech gadgetry and their own flag?

The Arab world won't let israel live in peace - from the very beginning they have tried to eliminate them. It was Syria and Egpyt who attacked Israel - then when Israel won land in the war - they now cry that want it back. Don't play victim in the middle east. The Arab world was the aggressor against Israel.

If you want to go after israel- go after them - but don't purposely target innocent people. There is a big difference. We did not target civilians - unlike the palestinians.

As for the changes, what do you mean? go to Iran and you will see that it really isnt as horrid as it has been portrayed. you can walk safely at nights on the street, very much so infact, talk with the people and have a nice time at the little cafes and what have you. i heard someone say about 'acid being thrown in womens face' adn what have you. maybe in Sudan or some REALLY third world place *cough*or saudi arabia *cough* that would happen, btu again you use the brush of "MIDDLE EAST" again.

I don't use the brush of the Middle east. But if Iran is all those things - then why aren't you there? You do have acid being thrown on womens faces - maybe not in Iran - but there was recently the case of the professor who was going to be executed for speaking out against radical Islam in IRAN. Sorry - but not my idea of a freedom loving place. Just my opinion though.

Isnt Turkey part of that circle? (even thoughis is close to europe it still has been classified as middle east) they are quite prgressive and up to date. Lebenon? they have a nice system too.

What about them? I wouldn't consider Lebanon - which is a state which supports terrorism to be a model country for the Middle East. As for Turkey - Turkey is part of NATO and a US ally and is far more reformed and moderate than the rest of the Arab countries.

The whole Humanitarian thing is pretty simple. How can you help anyone out of their problems when you are broke, near economic collapse, in debt after a war that was kinda foisted on you and just had your major money making facilities bombed to hell?

Why don't they teach something in their schools beside hate? Why in the text books does it teach that it is okay to kill Jews and infidels? In Saudi Arabia they have huge unemplyment - but 70% of the workers are form out of the country. Again you play victim as if it is the US who have bombed all your cities and stuff. Why is Saudi Arabia so poor (general population wise) They have no terrorism, their cities are intact. Again you play miss victim there.

Does it matter what the Governments of a country do? Reach out to different faiths, well, if you go pretty much anywhere in Iran (i use this because this is what i am familiar with) and say 'i am an American and Christian, how do you do?' you will be greeted with much friendship and kindness. and you will have your rights respected. they wont force a Qu'ran in your face and say 'WE ARE RIGHT YOU ARENT, BURN IN HELL YOU SINNER!' just like if you go to certain southern churches, the preachers will spill out that type of fire and brimstoen shanagans, but you arent going there to listen to that.

Okay - then why in the Middle East must western newswomen wear scarves while reporting the news if they're so understanding? Islam isn't Diane Sawyers or Barbara Walter's religion - so why must they have to wear scarves?

BTW - I'm atheist so I think it's all a bunch of crap basically. I don't care if others believe - just don't look down on me for not believing or force your beliefs on me. More wars and fanticism has been the result of religion than anything else.

[jerseydevil]

Ah, yes, the Soviet union was there during Iran but rapidly imploding and yes they sent a few dilapitated tanks over but wanted our oil feilds in return so we told them to screw off. I dont think my uncle or cousins had any russians bneside them in the bunkers.

Oh - so I guess it was just all the evil United States - the place you somehow feel comfortable to live. Don't you find it ironic that you live in the country you claim does all these terrible things to your homeland? Believe me - if a country did all the things you accuse of us - I wouldn't be living in that very same country. I guess what it boils down to - even you realize you have a better life here than there.

So when is the Middle East really going to move into the 20th century and stop always playing the victim? It's time for the Middle East to take some responsibility for themselves and stop blaiming the west and Israel. I know it's easy - but they should grow up already and work at making their lives better - instead of putting all their money and resources into blowing up innocent people. The rest of the Middle East can do A LOT of the Palestinians by building schools adn so forth - instead they funnel their money to the bombers.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
The Arab world won't let israel live in peace - from the very beginning they have tried to eliminate them. It was Syria and Egpyt who attacked Israel - then when Israel won land in the war - they now cry that want it back. Don't play victim in the middle east. The Arab world was the aggressor against Israel.

Saying the Arab world was the aggressor against Israel is like saying the North American Indians were the aggressors against the Europeans.

Somebody comes to your country, takes your land, and when you fight back you're the aggressor?

If the world felt so guilty about what the Germans did to the Jews they should have been given Bavaria or Saxony.

Given that, the Palestinians were foolish not to accept the Camp Davd accords- with the strength of Israel now and into the foreseeable future, 30% of a loaf is better than crumbs, even if it was your loaf to start with.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Saying the Arab world was the aggressor against Israel is like saying the North American Indians were the aggressors against the Europeans.

Somebody comes to your country, takes your land, and when you fight back you're the aggressor?

It wasn't the Arab's land though when israel was giving to the jews - it was Great Britains who won it from the Ottoman Empire. How far back in time are we supposed to go to give back the land? At one time it was the Jews - remember the bible? What about the Romans - why don't we give it back to Italy? Why don't we reform the Ottoman Empire while we're at it? You tell me whose land it is. The UN and Britain created the Palestinian section and the Israeli section. The Arabs were not happy with it - so they tried to gain control over all of it. Israel almost lost - but then won and gained land - now the Arabs whine that they want it back - when they were the ones who if they didn't attack - would not have lost it in the first place.

If the world felt so guilty about what the Germans did to the Jews they should have been given Bavaria or Saxony.

Israel has very serious religious significance to the Jews.

Given that, the Palestinians were foolish not to accept the Camp Davd accords- with the strength of Israel now and into the foreseeable future, 30% of a loaf is better than crumbs, even if it was your loaf to start with.

The loaf the Israelis were willing to give to the Palestinians was land Israel won in a war that the Arabs started in order to destory Israel.

[The Gaffer]

Thank you, last sane person, for an excellent contribution.

Originally posted by The last sane person
No- you dont see Americans dancing in the street, you see them glued to the TV set and cheering when the bombs fell on Iraq. ( I was witness to that seen myself in a local pub).

And that's just the people. You've also got a mass market entertainment industry cheerleading for the whole sick process.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
What do you expect from a bunch of drunks? The thing is - the people cheering in the Middle East aren't drunk - they actually celebrate it.

My god man, have you no insight into yourself?? These people are responding to the same thing. If there's a significant difference, I bet it's that the drunks in the bar are more representative of general opinion in the US than the people who cheered 9/11 were of ordinary Palestinians' opinions.

(Still, that doesn't make good TV, so let's go out and find some loonies waving towels)

When people get together, they can psyche themselves up to do inhuman things (see Hazing thread). The drunks in the bar and the extremists in the strip of desert are all people and under the influence of the same drug: they have dissociated themselves from the humanity of the victims of the violence they're celebrating.

The broad brush generalisations that this thread was intended to address are the first step along the way to attaining this despicable state of mind.

[Sween]

Once again JD has turned this thread round into a US vs everyone thread ill admit mate im getting really tired of this happens everytime! Its boring and has been done a thousand times

The point of this thread is to discuss the growing racism toward Muslims people and how the media and the people of the world now see them! Does someone say Muslim and you think terrorist, treat women badly, backward? Because thats what im finding on the street in England and it worries me.

This is not another thread for the disscussion of 9/11 realted issues or americas involvment in the middle east!

Also what can be done by both sides to solves this problem before it escalates into a truely massive problem. I can see race wars both at home and away be the major problem this century

[The Gaffer]

Hear hear!

Some easy steps:

Programming:
1) Repeat after me: "All people are humans like me."

2) Once you've got that memorised, move on to "All people are different"

3) Go to the movies. Iranian cinema is amongst the most creative and vibrant and has produced some great films recently. See how people who dress funny are in fact humans like you, yet unique, like you. Isn't life great?

De-programming:
1) Discard the reactionary "they do it to us, so we have to do it to them" attitude. You are not responsible for other people's behaviour, but you are responsible for your own. Take responsibility.

2) Wake up to the fact that your natural (human) tribal impulses are being manipulated to enable the continued diversion of money from your pockets, and your children's schools, into the military-industrial elite. If you doubt this, read 1984, then watch Fox news. See if you can spot the difference.

It's easy when you know how.

[Radagast The Brown]

I don't know any Muslim personally, ubt we did learnt about them in history.

originally posted by The last sane person
And arent the children in that "refugee" camp that the Israeli army pumped missles into, innocent too? what about them? If that isnt true as Israel claims, then why has Israel Point blank refused Nato to come and investigate the area?

Not many bombs explode in the "refugee" camp. And when they do, they don't aimed on the man, womne and children. They are aimed on the terorrists, that hide in their houses. And they almost never killed, too. We didn't kill the heads of terror in the autonomy because we didn't want to kill so much people.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
Once again JD has turned this thread round into a US vs everyone thread ill admit mate im getting really tired of this happens everytime! Its boring and has been done a thousand times

I did not. Sorry - you don't like it. But this was a discussion about muslims. I disagree with a lot of what you guys say. I'm not going to keep quiet about the victim attitude of the Middle East. Just because you and Last Sane Person think it is - that's your problem.

The point of this thread is to discuss the growing racism toward Muslims people and how the media and the people of the world now see them! Does someone say Muslim and you think terrorist, treat women badly, backward? Because thats what im finding on the street in England and it worries me.

This is what I discussed sween - if you look at the MAJORITY of posts. If people make comments - I'm not going to just sit by and let them make it without a response if I have something to say. All I did was say that there wasn't the racism toward Muslims here in NJ. I even pointed out there is a different attitude in other parts of the country.

So - personally Sween - I don't care if you're tired of it. If you don't want me to respond to threads like these - then don't start them. I'm not going to keep my opinions to myself - to please you or anyone else.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Hear hear!

Some easy steps:

Programming:
1) Repeat after me: "All people are humans like me."

2) Once you've got that memorised, move on to "All people are different"

3) Go to the movies. Iranian cinema is amongst the most creative and vibrant and has produced some great films recently. See how people who dress funny are in fact humans like you, yet unique, like you. Isn't life great?

De-programming:
1) Discard the reactionary "they do it to us, so we have to do it to them" attitude. You are not responsible for other people's behaviour, but you are responsible for your own. Take responsibility.

2) Wake up to the fact that your natural (human) tribal impulses are being manipulated to enable the continued diversion of money from your pockets, and your children's schools, into the military-industrial elite. If you doubt this, read 1984, then watch Fox news. See if you can spot the difference.

It's easy when you know how.

Screw you gaffer - because you don't know me. If you did you wouldn't be having that directed at me. I've been to England - I know that you guys are less accepting then you claim.

But maybe you should direct it at the Arabs in the Middle East. But of course that not a big bad ugly American, right?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
TMy god man, have you no insight into yourself?? These people are responding to the same thing. If there's a significant difference, I bet it's that the drunks in the bar are more representative of general opinion in the US than the people who cheered 9/11 were of ordinary Palestinians' opinions.

Of course you would - you're a superior European and I'm justa lowly American. Oh please superior - tell us how to bring peace to the world - you did such a GREAT job while Europe was the major powers.

(Still, that doesn't make good TV, so let's go out and find some loonies waving towels)

When people get together, they can psyche themselves up to do inhuman things (see Hazing thread). The drunks in the bar and the extremists in the strip of desert are all people and under the influence of the same drug: they have dissociated themselves from the humanity of the victims of the violence they're celebrating.

The broad brush generalisations that this thread was intended to address are the first step along the way to attaining this despicable state of mind.

YOu know - when they repeatedly interview children and palestinians and arabs and they say - I plan on being a suicide bomber and they JUSTIFY hte killing of innocent people with no remorse - you have to question it. You guys can think it's a minority of suicide bomber supporters there - but it's not.

As I said - I don't have any problems with muslims. I would a friend with one - becuase I don't look at their skin color or religion. But that does not mean that I think that the attitude of the majority in the Middle East is the attitude I support.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I think RTB has a great point. It is comman practice for terrorists to hide among the innocent, to resort to useing human shields, to use the cover of mosques, to just plain take the cowardly way out of a fight. If innocent people die in these acts, I think you have the cowardly terrorist to thank for that.

Now, to address the American war cheering, and the Palastinian celebrations of 9/11. Let's get real. When the US dropped bombs on Iraq, it was carefully aimed millitary targets. The goal was never to kill civillions, although admittedly in any war civillians unfortunately do die. I support the US's stand on Iraq, and when I watched the war unfold on tv, I was proud of the way our military conducted themselves. There is a difference between that, and cheering when 3,000 innocent people are killed maliciously. That is what I saw on 9/11 coming out of the middle-east. It isn't just limited to 9/11 either. The other day there was a US diplomatic convoy traveling through Gaza, that was blown up, and 3 Americans were killed. Those people were there to help, and that was how they were paid for their efforts. As the Palistinian police attempted to investigate the scene, Palistinian citizens reveled in the streets over more innocent American deaths.

Sween, you may not have intended for this thread to become political or another 9/11 thread, but I think you will find that this topic probably cannot be discussed without those things being applied. It does tie in.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I think RTB has a great point. It is comman practice for terrorists to hide among the innocent, to resort to useing human shields, to use the cover of mosques, to just plain take the cowardly way out of a fight. If innocent people die in these acts, I think you have the cowardly terrorist to thank for that.

They want to ignore that fact though. If the suicide bombings stopped - things would be A LOT better for them. The check points would go away, the bull dozing of homes would stop, etc. But it much better to play victim all the time - then face up to their responsibity they cause.

Now, to address the American war cheering, and the Palastinian celebrations of 9/11. Let's get real. When the US dropped bombs on Iraq, it was carefully aimed millitary targets. The goal was never to kill civillions, although admittedly in any war civillians unfortunately do die. I support the US's stand on Iraq, and when I watched the war unfold on tv, I was proud of the way our military conducted themselves. There is a difference between that, and cheering when 3,000 innocent people are killed maliciously. That is what I saw on 9/11 coming out of the middle-east. It isn't just limited to 9/11 either. The other day there was a US diplomatic convoy traveling through Gaza, that was blown up, and 3 Americans were killed. Those people were there to help, and that was how they were paid for their efforts. As the Palistinian police attempted to investigate the scene, Palistinian citizens reveled in the streets over more innocent American deaths.

You forgot how they were throwing stones at the investigators of the attack and then started throwing stones at the reporters and things. If the Middle East wants to be thought of as civilized - then I suggest they start acting it.

Sween, you may not have intended for this thread to become political or another 9/11 thread, but I think you will find that this topic probably cannot be discussed without those things being applied. It does tie in.

They want to ignore the fact that 9/11 was a huge event. They want to ignore the fact that they weren't just buildings - they contained MORE office space than ALL of San Diego. If a country BOMBED a city of 50,000 people in the US you better beleive we would be at war. Why is this so hard for the rest of the world to understand? I know the Europeans have no buildings that come even close to the size of those buildings - so I can only think it's because of ignorance to what the size of those buildings. Not to mention that they killed FOUR plane loads of people mostly Americans. I guess britain or other European countries would just sit back and go - "oh you killed 3,000 people, well that was 2 years ago - you can go about your business of building bombs again and supporting terrorism." Sorry - but the US isn't going to back out like the rest of the world always does.

It is great that the UN has unanymously supported the US resolution on Iraq today. Maybe now they can worry about the people of Iraq like they claim and lend a hand. We got rid of a mass murderer.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, people don't forget so easily the deaths from the atom bomb in Japan, or the deaths of the German concentratin camps, but 9/11 is easily forgiven. Or is there just a big difference between the deaths of 6 million, vs 3 thousand? Is one more justified than the other? I think we should all recall the words of John Dunn, in For Whom The Bell Tolls.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, people don't forget so easily the deaths from the atom bomb in Japan, or the deaths of the German concentratin camps, but 9/11 is easily forgiven. Or is there just a big difference between the deaths of 6 million, vs 3 thousand? Is one more justified than the other? I think we should all recall the words of John Dunn, in For Whom The Bell Tolls.

Well they bring up the atom bombs over Japan - because it gives them another thing to criticize Americans for. They most often ignore the fact that America gave Japan THREE warnings on that - and then after the first bomb was dropped - we warned them again. Also they seem to forget that we were at war with Japan - a war Japan dragged us into by - by first attacking us. Many many many millions of civilians were killed on the defeat of Germany - but becuase no atomic bomb was dropped to bring the end of that - it's not mentioned.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
... I bet it's that the drunks in the bar are more representative of general opinion in the US than the people who cheered 9/11 were of ordinary Palestinians' opinions.

You lost your bet, pay up.

I did not cheer, I did not support the war with Iraq. And most of the people I know did not either. None of us cheered, we were horrified.

So, quit lumping all Americans together into your own neat little stereotype. We are not mindless, war-mongering brutes. Grow up.

Back on topic.
I had a lot of empathy for the Palestinians prior to 9/11. I always wanted what was fair for them. I wanted to see them work toward peace.

Then when the WTC was destroyed, and all those people were killed, the news showed them... dancing in the streets, celebrating the murder of thousands of innocent people. I was disgusted!

I have no feelings for them anymore. My empathy is gone for them. I don't think they got a raw deal after all. And I don't care if Israel pushes them off the face of the Earth. They have my blessings.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
I don't know any Muslim personally, ubt we did learnt about them in history.
Not many bombs explode in the "refugee" camp. And when they do, they don't aimed on the man, womne and children. They are aimed on the terorrists, that hide in their houses. And they almost never killed, too. We didn't kill the heads of terror in the autonomy because we didn't want to kill so much people.

Thanks for bringing your perspective into this Rad.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
You lost your bet, pay up.

I basically just let that ignorant statement go by. Most europeans get their news media filtered to what they want to see of us. It's like the French news channel le Journal. When the latest bin Ladin tapes came out - they didn't report that the US government was analyzing the tapes to authenticate them - they said we were analyzing the tapes to try to disprove them. That's only one example of European media twisting the news. I know they like to think their news is superior and that they are generally superior than us - but they know nothing about us really. They call us ignorant - they should look in the mirror. They should ask themselves how well they understand us - or are accepting of us, how much they understand the United States, how well do they understand our government. They should ask fellow europeans where or what New Jersey is (most seem to not know or think it's a city) - or what the capital of Oregon is.

[Earniel]

JD, would you just listen to your self? Do you have any idea how you sound right now?

Look in the mirror you said, but have you tried it yourself lately?

The more I hear you, the more indeed I think I do not understand the way Americans think and the more I think America understands little more of how we think as well. And that's really, really a shame.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Eärniel
JD, would you just listen to your self? Do you have any idea how you sound right now?

Look in the mirror you said, but have you tried it yourself lately?

The more I hear you, the more indeed I think I do not understand the way Americans think and the more I think America understands little more of how we think as well. And that's really, really a shame.

Well, you know, I think what is wrong here Earniel, is that people like JD, myself, and other Americans get tired of the constant finger pointing and critisism of this country. We feel that we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't. Nomatter what the US does, nobody likes it, but yet you do not see anyone else on this planet doing more to make the world a better place than the US does, and yet, we are looked at as: proud, arrogant, war mongering, power hungry, political, dictators. It gets old.