Gollum Debate

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
And finally, gwaimi… god. Youre worse then the first guy. Are all the guys on this board into this kinda sicko kinky stuff? I mean that’s pretty cool but Im kinda surprised. I figured you guys would all be a bunch of book worms not masochists. Or is it something about me that gets em goin? <evil grin>

Um...thanks? My point was that "raw instinct" provides a truly sick creature. In actuality, I do not dream of or consider doing such things; I merely find the individuals fascinating. But quite obviously, they did.

Oops, I forgot the Japanese torture!

ok on your points. Devotion is a word humans created. Animals just do their thing. If that means mating for life then that’s what they do. They don’t sit around debating about it and think they are being moral or something like we pathetic humans do.

Firstly, you don't KNOW that... Secondly, you previously said that animals which are not corrupted by humanity are not "mixed up" by such things. Mating for life mixes them up. They could reproduce far better if they just mated and then forgot their partner.

Gollum is NOT like that JUST because he was cast out of his village or whatever. Gollum had no choice but to seek COMPLETE isolation from everyone. If he was just cast out then he coulda just wondered like some nomad still interacting with people but just homeless like some small twisted ranger. But he went for total isolation. The idea of even interacting with anyone was like overwhelmingly negative to him.

Indeed. He was corrupted by the touch of Evil, made into a fitting vessel for it.
He did not Seek isolation; he was exiled.
The reason he went for total isolation was, at least partially, because as is told in the Ring, he hated the light of the Sun and Moon. I think that probably another reason was that as such a vile, twisted creature, he felt guilt or shame, and could not bring himself to associate much at all with other creatures. Which is WHY, as you said, the idea of interacting with others was negative to him; because of his shame and twisted nature. Also,

What I was trying to say is that I think its significant that tolkien had a hobbit and a wretched little imp of a creature be the ones to finally destroy the ring and not all the big hero-like characters in the book. I think hes trying to say something with that. You disagree? So then to you its just incidental how the ring is destroyed then? Well not to me. sorry. It’s a pretty big flipin deal.

In a manner of speaking, you are correct, yes. One theme of Tolkien's work was the power of the "little person", i.e. Frodo, who had such strength of will to carry the Ring to the Crack of Doom before falling under its power. But Gollum was meant as a pathetic creature, on whom Frodo and Sam take pity for his sad, and miserable lot in life. Yes, he was miserable, even when he had the Ring. He hated and loved it, even as he hated and loved himself.

Ok look people im not interested in being myself or a conformist or a nonconformist for that matter or anything at all. I just wanna be NOBODY. I want perfect escape. When I read the hobbit and the lord of the rings I identified with gollum. So why are all yall people trying to argue with me about what I freaking find attractive!!! If you don’t like it back the [edit] away! its real simple. Im not telling ya to not be noble or moral or thoughtful or whatever the [edit] you wanna be im just saying if I wanna suck the doubt and guilt and dispair and pity and politness and all that other shnit out of my brain then LET ME DO IT!! Or at least let me dream about it cause im stuck in this joke of a reality. Ok?

Then why do you praise Gollum because you see him as a non-conformist?
Well, to put it quite plainly, you started it. Those of us who are members of this board are dedicated followers and lovers of the works of J. R. R. Tolkien. And the Gollum you idealise, quite frankly, I think very few of those who study the works of Tolkien would see. Indeed, I highly doubt that Tolkien himself would have seen him.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
she elf… yes elf I would enjoy eternal isolation and the total corruption of my mind by an outside source so I don’t have to be TRAPPED IN THIS STUPID BRAIN FILLED WITH CHOICES AND MORALS AND THINK THE SAME FREAKING WAY I DO NOW!!!! <hitting head>. Give me pleasant zombiedom.

I think you should see a psychiatrist. Or perhaps you have already come in contact with the Ring?

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
Ok look people im not interested in being myself or a conformist or a nonconformist for that matter or anything at all.

Odd. Just a while you were saying you wanted to be Gollum because you thought he was a nonconformist.

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
I just wanna be NOBODY. I want perfect escape.

There, there. I don't think that's what you really want, because if it was, you would be dead, wouldn't you? (Feel free to correct me. Just an opinion.)

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
When I read the hobbit and the lord of the rings I identified with gollum.

Me too. Anyone who identifies with Frodo must identify with Gollum.

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
So why are all yall people trying to argue with me about what I freaking find attractive!!! If you don’t like it back the [edit] away! its real simple.

This is a discussion board. We discuss things like people's opinions. (I was hoping someone would join the debate on your side, though.)

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
Im not telling ya to not be noble or moral or thoughtful or whatever the [edit] you wanna be im just saying if I wanna suck the doubt and guilt and dispair and pity and politness and all that other shnit out of my brain then LET ME DO IT!! Or at least let me dream about it cause im stuck in this joke of a reality. Ok?

NO! WE WILL NOT LET YOU GO! Then no one would debate with us about Gollum!

[Elfhelm]

Wanting to become nothing is nihilism, that's what I'm saying. "nihil" is latin for nothing.

Realizing one can choose self-destruction is the beginning of free will. That is a result of experience.

Realizing one can choose self-creation is the only opposite. As opposed to conformity.

Smeagol wimped out. I believe the One Ring was always resistable. And I think Sam showed it. And it is Sam, who you might think is settling into conformity, but to my mind he is the only one who is forced out of his normal life by disruptive events, goes into the darkest part of the world, finds salvation, and brings it back to his community - which is what I call a hero and so does Joseph Campbell, for what it's worth.

[Psycho Kitty]

Ok. I get it now. This is the haze the new kid party. That’s cool. Have your fun. Kinda middle school but I can deal. When do we get to the point where I can actually make posts without people feeling the need to jump all over me for simply expressing an opinion? Just lemme know when we get there cause im interested.

Lets see how did all this start… Oh yeah. She elf asked “who are you in middle earth” and I said hey well Id like to be gollum if that’s ok cause I like him the most. Now the proper response shoulda been like um ok. Whatever. Youre weird. well i wanna be an elf because… and that would have been that. But no its hey the new kid wants to be gollum lets take her outback and beat her to a pulp for the fun of it. And she elf made a new thread basically inviting me out back. And I don’t ever back down from a challenge so out I went. And the beating began. And when I fought back and wouldn’t give in easy they call in the two hell hounds who threaten to cut my heart out and eat it. Well I guess yall are gonna have to keep it up cause its not intimidating me and I don’t back down. So haze away people.

Ok hell hound number 1: ok youre easy. Youre just the classic bully with a chip on his shoulder for some reason. I wont ask what happened to you in childhood to get you that way cause I don’t care. But keep youre hot air to yourself. It doesn’t impress me. You don’t speak for tolkien and you don’t speak for me so half the crap you said immediately doesn’t work. When tolkien jumps out of his grave and says you represent his work lemme know k.

On the other hand, your desire to escape choices and morals and even, how pathetic, not to be forced to think is an incredible display of foolishness. There is no escape, not for you, not for gollum. The fact that you would wish such an escape is an indication that you are allready well on your way to gollum's state- and you don't seem to realize that it's only going to get worse.

are you even preaching to me now? Your opinion about what I want to do with MY self is completely worthless. Get it? Its MY FREAKING CHOICE! If you want to be an overbearing conceded close minded arrogant prick who spends their time trying to spook new kids on message boards by telling them how they want to eat their guts when all they did was express who they would like to be in a book of fiction then be my guest. Makes my choice for nothingness seem all the more attractive. So thanks. Youre a perfect example of the hostile unfriendly [edit]s in life who feel the need to display their supposed superiority to everyone they meet not realizing the truly superior person would never feel the need to do that. I have to deal with enough small minded people like you in life and thats one of the big reasons I want to escape it. So keep it up. Im sure youll be thrilled to know you are helping push me there. So you can add me to your list of little people whose heads you’ve bitten off. Bet it makes you feel good reading that list every day doesn’t it.

Of those on this forum, it is you, with your desire to be the same as gollum, that is the most conformist. The rest of us may be similar or different, but we are happily ourselves.

dude wake up. The question was to pick someone who YOU WANT TO BE LIKE FROM MIDDLE EARTH! Now how do you propose I pick someone without actually picking someone? Please explain that one to me. And if desiring to be a loathsome pathetic wicked little creature twisted by evil is conformity then I think that makes YOU the ‘redefinition’ master. Not me.

Have you read the hobbit? Have you read the LOTR? Gollum /wanted/ someone to talk to. The small part of his mind that was still his own enjoyed the riddle-games with Bilbo, and was overwhelmingly glad when Frodo treated him well.

ok ONCE AGAIN this part was smeagol NOT gollum. Gollum just wanted to eat bilbo not play riddles with him. How many times do I need to say I want to be like GOLLUM and NOT SMEAGOL. Nice try.

What Gwaimir and I demonstrated was sadism, not masochism. And both of us pulled our punches

oh well please don’t hold back for my sake. Keep punching. I thrive on pain. And I like the taste of my own blood in my mouth. Makes me feel alive.

[Psycho Kitty]

Hell hound number 2:

Firstly, you don't KNOW that... Secondly, you previously said that animals which are not corrupted by humanity are not "mixed up" by such things. Mating for life mixes them up. They could reproduce far better if they just mated and then forgot their partner.

do you know much about biology now? Im still learning it but I DO know that some animals do better mating for life and some don’t. so if an animal can do better mating for life then that’s what it does. But it doesn’t THINK about it. It just does cause if it didn’t its kids would die.

***

Ok as for the rest of your post Im fine with most of it. The only differences I see are that you don’t see the pure animal part in gollum that I see. Of course he was tortured and pathetic. Im not worried about that. You guys keep coming back to that like I should be all alarmed by that or something. That doesn’t matter to me. All im saying is if I had my choice id rather be more like that then like say gandolf or froto or most of the humans. I mean think how much they had to worry about and deal with.

Well, to put it quite plainly, you started it. Those of us who are members of this board are dedicated followers and lovers of the works of J. R. R. Tolkien. And the Gollum you idealise, quite frankly, I think very few of those who study the works of Tolkien would see. Indeed, I highly doubt that Tolkien himself would have seen him.

I don’t expect you to see the things I see. I have a different perspective from you. What I do expect you to do is open your minds and say ok that’s your deal and it doesn’t work for me but maybe it works for you. And I can respect that. But instead you preach at me and tell me im wrong. How can an opinion be wrong? How can a gut feeling be wrong? Its not FACTUAL! So ya let me know when you officially become the resurrected voice of tolkien and then ill start listening to what you have to say about what tolkien was thinking.

Ok im done again so I guess its time for the next round in beat up the new kid. So ill sit here patiently waiting for your further abuse.

[Psycho Kitty]

she elf...

I think you should see a psychiatrist. Or perhaps you have already come in contact with the Ring?

ive seen a shrink. They just said I was a smart ass. And I wish I could come in contact with the ring.

There, there. I don't think that's what you really want, because if it was, you would be dead, wouldn't you? (Feel free to correct me. Just an opinion.)

correcting you… dead is dead. Escape is alive but no worries. Perfect escape is total oblivion of your human mind (or elf mind). I want to be Animal.

Me too. Anyone who identifies with Frodo must identify with Gollum.

an elf identifies with frodo?

This is a discussion board. We discuss things like people's opinions. (I was hoping someone would join the debate on your side, though.)

hey we both know that would never happen. Im the new kid remember.

NO! WE WILL NOT LET YOU GO! Then no one would debate with us about Gollum!

what about the next new kid? But don’t worry elf. Im not going anywhere. Getting picked on just encourages me. Im a sucker for punishment.

[Elfhelm]

I'm glad I didn't get lumped in as a hazer!

Some of your ideas are scary. I'm sure you know that. Of course people are over-reacting. But browse around and check out other threads before you jump to conclusions.

Yes, some people want to convince others to think like them, but not everyone in this thread is that way. I hope you'll realize there are independent thinkers here, too, and that you'll enjoy engaging us in more witty reparté.

By the way, most people use TV to become nothings. I still think it is the ultimate conformity.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Wayfarer, the sick
What Gwaimir and I demonstrated was sadism, not masochism. And both of us pulled our punches

Don't you corrupt our innocent Gwai!!! You keep away from him. *starts to beat on Wayfarer* Stand behind me Gwai, I'll protect you!
Ruinel ---> <---Wayfarer

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
...In actuality, I do not dream of or consider doing such things....

Oh, what a relief!!! I suppose I can stop beating on Wayfarer now. *stops beating on Wayfarer, sees that Wayfarer likes it, then cringes*
Wayfarer-->
Oh, yes... and Wayfarer, before you respond to this, from Psycho Kitty...

oh well please don’t hold back for my sake. Keep punching. I thrive on pain. And I like the taste of my own blood in my mouth. Makes me feel alive.

... remember that you don't know how old she is. (or young)

[Wayfarer]

Wayfarer -><- Ruinel

oh well please don’t hold back for my sake. Keep punching. I thrive on pain. And I like the taste of my own blood in my mouth. Makes me feel alive.

But you don't want to feel alive, do you? You don't want to feel anything.

But don't worry, you can rest assured that I'm not picking on you because you're a newbie. I'm picking on you because there aren't enough masochists around. I pick on everybody.

You just don't seem to realize that consigning yourself to torment isn't going to solve any problems. Really. Been there, danced with the dark lords, gazed into the abyss, and have the post-card to prove it.

So by all means, don't let me intimidate you. And remember that Gollum is cool, but he's not the ideal you want to paint him as. In the end, gollum is one of the least happy beings in middle earth. It is Bilbo, Frodo, and Samwise who escape from this world and are healed of their hurts. Gollum finds no such freedom in life.

And may I ask, if it's not prying, why it is you would desire escape as opposed to healing?

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
ive seen a shrink. They just said I was a smart ass.

Ah. Well they'd probably label me the same.

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
correcting you… dead is dead. Escape is alive but no worries. Perfect escape is total oblivion of your human mind (or elf mind). I want to be Animal.

Animals have the worries of were to find the next meal, to be sheltered during the next sandstorm, finding a mate.

Isn't death more oblivion than life ever will be?

To sleep, perchance to dream... Ay, there's the rub!

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
an elf identifies with frodo?

Certainly more than I identify with any other hobbit.

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
hey we both know that would never happen. Im the new kid remember.

You'd be surprised some of the wierd opinions we get here. Check out Black Breathalizer.

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
what about the next new kid? But don’t worry elf. Im not going anywhere. Getting picked on just encourages me. Im a sucker for punishment.

Not all new kids are willing to debate.

We aren't picking on you! (Well except some of the male people with W's in their initials maybe...)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Wayfarer


Wayfarer -><- Ruinel

Are we going to start this again? Didn't you get a thorough enough beating yesterday? Don't you want those whelps to heal first before I give you more?


As for the rest... *sigh* dammit!!! I agree with Wayfarer... he's got a good point. AAAAARRRRGGGGHHH!!!

[Wayfarer]

And us W people pick on everybody.

So don't take it personal. We like to play a bit rough sometimes. Thanks for joining.

Originally posted by Ruinel
Are we going to start this again? Didn't you get a thorough enough beating yesterday? Don't you want those whelps to heal first before I give you more?

Hey, I was enjoying the mutual application of brute violence via emoticons. I'll play wit'cha, but the question is do you want to risk messing up that pretty elven face and figure?

Originally posted by Ruinel
As for the rest... *sigh* dammit!!! I agree with Wayfarer... he's got a good point. AAAAARRRRGGGGHHH!!!

Umm...

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Hey, I was enjoying the mutual application of brute violence via emoticons. I'll play wit'cha, but the question is do you want to risk messing up that pretty elven face and figure?

I think it would be you licking your wounds after I was finished with you, Maia!

Umm...

Don't get any ideas!

[Starr Polish]

Psycho Kitty, I know you.

Maybe not personally, but you're everywhere. Every single high school and junior high has one, usually more. In fact, I used to be a watered down version of what you are (I was not nearly as severe about it though). Some of those old aspects of my personality still pop up now and then, but they shame me now.

Making yourself the victim, saying you thrive on pain, twisting words and actions to try to make people feel sorry for yourself, by "going against the grain"...It's not all that new, or shocking. This ISN'T pick on the newbie (that's really not a problem here on Entmoot), it's find out who's trying to get attention. I'm willing to talk about this PM, but I'd rather not, because I don't feel like feeding your need for attention.

I grew out of it. I hope you do too.

[Elf Girl]

My junior high doesn't have one... at least not that I know of.

Wayfarer and Ruinel, keep your smilies out of my precious debate thread.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
Wayfarer and Ruinel, keep your smilies out of my precious debate thread.

Mwaahahahahahaaha!

[azalea]

Originally posted by Elf Girl

Wayfarer and Ruinel, keep your smilies out of my precious debate thread.

No kidding...what is this, GM or something?

Anyway...
PK, I hope you understand that these people are merely trying to have a debate, not haze you. You are peppering your posts with some very personal statements unrelated to the debate at hand, which is "Gollum and the Ring."

Everyone, Elf Girl put this in this forum because she knows that this is the place where we can debate matters pertaining to LotR. Please try to keep your posts on topic. Discussion of more personal matters can be taken over to a more appropriate thread in GM, or can be done in PMs. Also, be sure your posts do not contain flames. Thank you.

[Psycho Kitty]

Elfhelmet… no your ideas are fine and I can debate with you which is acceptable. You don’t rush out of the dark and yell about eating my head or something. Big difference.

Some of your ideas are scary. I'm sure you know that.

ya very scary Im sure. I accept that though. Its all one big range. And Im always way beyond the bell curve. On everything.

I hope you'll realize there are independent thinkers here, too, and that you'll enjoy engaging us in more witty reparté.

ya Im getting an idea of personalities. And really I don’t care if you are nasty to me I can take it. But I DO fight back. Although I guess you’ve noticed that by now. <evil grin>

By the way, most people use TV to become nothings. I still think it is the ultimate conformity.

I agree. Kill your tv.

Hell hound number 1…

But you don't want to feel alive, do you? You don't want to feel anything.

I guess what I want is to cut out certain parts of my brain and enhance other parts. I just want to be the animal that doesn’t feel the human parts. To be able to act and react without all the guilt and remorse and second guessing and crap.

I pick on everybody.

Pick away. But I fight back against everybody. Even the smart masochistic bullies. And I DO bite. Maybe you can help bring out that animal in me hell hound.

You just don't seem to realize that consigning yourself to torment isn't going to solve any problems.

What torment?

So by all means, don't let me intimidate you

Oh don’t worry I wont.

And may I ask, if it's not prying, why it is you would desire escape as opposed to healing?

Why would I need healing if I don’t think im injured? That’s sounds kinda 1984ish.

She elf…

Isn't death more oblivion than life ever will be?

should I seek death then? Is that your suggestion? Or should I seek a place where I feel id rather be then here.

To sleep, perchance to dream... Ay, there's the rub!

funny you should mention. I also identify with hamlet as well. Can you imagine why?

Not all new kids are willing to debate.

We aren't picking on you! (Well except some of the male people with W's in their initials maybe...)

well like I said I can handle myself against all comers. And so far its been like batting practice. <evil grin>

star polish…

ok I just erased the long screatching diatribe I wrote in response to your little post. Because it had nothing to do with the topic and because it was especially vicious. But that’s only because your big sister/I was like you when I was immature speech made me more pissed then any of the hell hounds ever did. Basically the idea of my post was: spare me. And no you DON’T know me so don’t try. If you want to give me more speeches then ya, go ahead and contact me some other way. Id be more then happy to tell you my thoughts about your advice…

azalea…

im just responding. My original post was id like to be gollum. Then it quickly got personal from there. And im not the type of person to ignore personal attacks. But anyway back to the issue. Are we done?

[Elf Girl]

No! Hahah, we will never be done! (Insert evil smiley here.)

Hamlet: Yes, I can see why you would identify with him.

Seeking death: No. Do not go committing suicide because I told you it was oblivion. (Somehow I doubt you will though.)

So! The topic: Does Gollum have an ideal life?

He loves and hates the Ring, and the murder of his best friend haunts him. He lives in a cold dark place and can never feel the sun or the wind or the light of the stars. He longs for company, but rejects it and tries to kill it when it comes. Sound ideal?

[Attalus]

What a strange thread. Pscho Kitty, I agree with Starr Polish that your experiences and mechanisms of dealing with the stresses and pains of adolescence are hardly novel, nor is your identifying with a literary character that you perceive as suffering in a way that you do. If you want to admire Gollum and project your anxieties and fears onto him, it is fine by me. I do object to your statement that there are no heroes in RL (I could name a dozen - I get the strong feeling that you associate heroes with the "Popular Element" in school. They aren't heroes, or even close.) and that animals don't feel devotion. Dogs, to an abnormal degree, but even in the wild. Have you ever seen the behavior of a Snow Goose whos mate has been killed? Screaming and covering the corpse with its wing? I have. For the record, I dislike Gollum, and have always liked that JRRT made him to be the one thing that could destroy the One Ring, because it had destroyed his will. At any rate, I hope that you find your way out of the dark place that you find yourself in. Pax.