Valar: Gods or Angels?

[Amandil]

Damn right Tolkien was a Christian!

Oh sorry, Lalaith, I didn't mean to insult your English abilities. I'm currently trying to learn another language at the moment -- Nederlands (Holländisch, auf Deutsch? Dutch, in English) -- and I'm so frigging bad at it I could never do what you do. You have my respect.

And my comment about "being a Christ" was an unfortunately too-obscure compliment. The literal, etymological translation of "Christian" is something like "little Christ," I do believe. C.S. Lewis said in Mere Christianity that the whole point of the religion is to produce a whole lot of little Christs. So if you call a Christian a "Christ," it's actually a gigantic compliment. Christians are supposed to be like Christ. And if one of us actually does come off this way, wow that would be stupendous. 'Course you didn't actually mean this, but the implication was really quite nice. Tolkien would be proud if people here thought he was Christ-like enough to be called that!

Love,

[Blackboar]

Tolkien was said to describe Gandalf as an angel, so if the maia are described as angels, what about the Valar?
The Valar are said to be angelic spirits, but gods have angelic spirits, if they are known as angels, would the maiar be just more angels, serving the ones with more power, or are they more gods, just ones created be the one, with less power.

I'm confused...

[Lalaith]

Oh sorry, Lalaith, I didn't mean to insult your English abilities. I'm currently trying to learn another language at the moment -- Nederlands (Holländisch, auf Deutsch? Dutch, in English) -- and I'm so frigging bad at it I could never do what you do. You have my respect.

Thank you. Yeah, Dutch would be a very cool language too. And I don't think it would be too difficult if you are able to speak German and English already.

Yes, it is in the Apocrypha, see here

Okay, I actually read the bible but I don't remember these parts.

And could the Valar and the Maiar not be like the holy people in the Catholic curch? Or maybe Angels.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Okay, I actually read the bible but I don't remember these parts.

And could the Valar and the Maiar not be like the holy people in the Catholic curch? Or maybe Angels.

I think Tolkien wanted the ainur...both valar and maiar to represent "angels". Valar would be considered arch-angels and mair just angels.....According to Catholic teaching, angels can take physical form....hence Mary being visited by the angel Gabriel.

[Amandil]

Yeah, I was gonna say arch-angels too. There can be tougher angels, or king/queen angels, I guess. A hierarchy of angels. Not like I'm an angelogist. ainj-ologist.

Lalaith (nice name, I'm trying to get my wife to agree to name our daughter that), maybe you didn't read the Apocrypha part of the Bible because it's not usually part of the Bible. It's an extra part to most Hebrew and Protestant Bibles, but it was included in the Catholic Bible after the Reformation (1500s I think). The texts date back (roughly) to the "intertestemental period," or around the time of Alexander's Empire and the Ptolemies/Selucids that followed. Hellenistic Judiasm, I think, is their origin...blah blah blah...I haven't even read them, anyway. Is there lots of angel stuff in them or what? Hum de hum de hum...

[Lalaith]

Lalaith (nice name, I'm trying to get my wife to agree to name our daughter that),

OT: Lalaith is a top-name on my childrens-names list. I used to like Nienor Niniel, which sounds quite good, but it isn't a very joyful name. How do you explain your little daughter the name Sadness and tear girl (I don't know if this is the correct english version).
I'm still thinking of a boy's name. Maybe Aldarion.
And Nenya, Vilya and Narya are on my list too, as nicknames. Thinking of three children.

[Amandil]

Problem is, my wife thinks there's too many "L"s in Lalaith, so she thinks it sounds dumb. Oh well, I guess it's tough to convince a non-Tolkeener.

[Lalaith]

You didn't convince her to read LotR?

[Elvellyn]

I have a question about the Ainur, but am not sure where to post it.
Anyway... Were all the Ainur either Valar or Maiar? Were there any just plain ol' regular Ainur?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

If I am correct, the Maiar and Valar were those of the Ainur who went into the circles of the world. Those who remained with Eru would probably be known by other names.

[Ruinel]

Valar: Gods or Angels? Answer: it depends upon your point of view.

If "god" is someone that creates... then both Eru Iluvatar and the Valar are capable and therefore have god-like qualities. After all, Aule created the Naugrim (Dwarves) long before the Children of Iluvatar were actually born.

On the other hand, the Ainulindale starts out with Eru, the One, creating the Ainur (Valar/Holy Ones). So, why would a god create other gods? More likely he created either demi-gods (which is apparent because their power is certainly less) or angelic beings that had the power to create but certainly not with the same capablilities that Eru had.

On the other hand, when Men were awakened in Arda they heard Eru's voice which spoke to them now and again. Then Melkor comes along and seduces them into worshipping him, as a god, and one who created them (Men) and the world.

On the other hand, when Andreth and Finrod *everyone's rolls eyes * (hey! I'm trying to make a point here) are discussing possible help to rid Arda of Melkor, Andreth is asking Finrod, "How could Eru enter into a thing that He has made, and that which He is beyond measure greater?" And Finrod answers back, "He is already in it, as well as outside, but indeed the 'in-dwelling' and the 'out-living' are not in the same mode." (And there's more, but I'm already taking up too much space in this post.) And yet the Valar can come to Arda and appear as people (so to speak), ride spectacular horses (Orome) and walk in the woods, etc. Yet they have powers.

So, it depends upon your point of view. Yes, Tolkien was Catholic and Christian. Did this have influence on his writing? Probably, so. And it is certainly written in the letters as we have seen posted.

As a former Catholic/Christian now Atheist I just like the stories for the stories. I make no analogies to anything outside of them. I also believe that Tolkien felt the same way (about the analogies, not the Atheism). Hope I haven't offended anyone.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Tolkien said that the Valar were 'gods' imaginatively (or something like that) but not theologically.

And as for 'analogies', I don't know if this is what you mean, but Tolkien definitely said that Eru was God.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Tolkien said that the Valar were 'gods' imaginatively (or something like that) but not theologically.

And as for 'analogies', I don't know if this is what you mean, but Tolkien definitely said that Eru was God.

god or God?

[Melko Belcha]

I think Artanis on the first page said it all with the quote from Letters #131.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
I think Artanis on the first page said it all with the quote from Letters #131.

This doesn't help. The word "god" is at the beginning of a sentence and is capitalized. Although, I don't think it really matters. I'm sure JRRT was not subsidizing Eru Iluvatar for the God that he was brought up worshipping as a Catholic.

It is a story. And with it comes a mythology of creation. The stories JRRT created changed shaped over his lifetime. Upon reading the stories, I never really put a label of angel or god on the Valar, nor Iluvatar. Iluvatar is The Creator of all. The Valar are the keepers of the Creation.

What really constitutes a god anyway? Definition: any of various beings conceived of as supernatural and immortal; an idol; a person or thing deified in monotheistic religions, the creator and ruler of the universe; Supreme Being.

In this respect, both Eru Iluvatar as well as the Valar would fit the definition.

[Melko Belcha]

Originally posted by Ruinel
This doesn't help. The word "god" is at the beginning of a sentence and is capitalized. Although, I don't think it really matters. I'm sure JRRT was not subsidizing Eru Iluvatar for the God that he was brought up worshipping as a Catholic.

It is a story. And with it comes a mythology of creation. The stories JRRT created changed shaped over his lifetime. Upon reading the stories, I never really put a label of angel or god on the Valar, nor Iluvatar. Iluvatar is The Creator of all. The Valar are the keepers of the Creation.

What really constitutes a god anyway? Definition: any of various beings conceived of as supernatural and immortal; an idol; a person or thing deified in monotheistic religions, the creator and ruler of the universe; Supreme Being.

In this respect, both Eru Iluvatar as well as the Valar would fit the definition.

I should have stated more.
I don't think of Eru as the Catholic God. I took Tolkien capitalizing God as Eru being the top creator, and the lower case god as being like the demi-gods of Greek Mythology.
I do not compare the Valar and Maiar to the Greek gods. I see them as being neither gods or angels, they are alot like us, they make mistakes, are not sure of things, and are not in full control of the things that happen to them.
I'm not doing a good job at trying to display my thoughts, but I hope my point is understood.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I disagree. I think that Tolkien did see Eru as the Christian God. After all, it is set in the same world; did God not come along until later, after Eru?

Just want to point out that the Greek gods are certainly fallible as well, not to mention a bit on the petty side.

[Cirdan]

Eru is certainly based on the God of Abraham but is clearly different. The creation story is completely different. He also states in the aforementioned letter that they are similar stories (his and the Christian mythology) but that his story is something new.

"Inspired by" and "the same" are two different things entirely.

The same would be when Frodo is "praised with great praise". That's right out of the book of common prayer.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
I should have stated more.
I don't think of Eru as the Catholic God. I took Tolkien capitalizing God as Eru being the top creator, and the lower case god as being like the demi-gods of Greek Mythology.
I do not compare the Valar and Maiar to the Greek gods. I see them as being neither gods or angels, they are alot like us, they make mistakes, are not sure of things, and are not in full control of the things that happen to them.
I'm not doing a good job at trying to display my thoughts, but I hope my point is understood.

Yes, I see it. And yes it is understood.

[Rían]

I think Eru Ilúvatar is definitely the Christian God. Here's another Letters quote you may have missed:

from Letters of JRR Tolkien, letter #156
There is only one 'god': God, Eru Ilúvatar. There are the first creations, angelic beings, of which those most concerned in the Cosmogony reside (of love and choice) inside the World, as Valar or gods, or governors; and there are incarnate rational creatures, Elves and Men, of similar but different status and natures.

And also in Letters, JRRT says the stories are based in this world, but in a time long ago, so that would also indicate that Eru Ilúvatar is the Christian God. The Valar have sub-creative powers, which are vastly different from the creative powers that Eru Ilúvatar has.