Of Turin Turambar

[azalea]

I just finished reading this chapter last night and found it very enjoyable, if sad. I actually found Turin hard to like (personality-wise, not character-wise). Each time he would do something that made me like him, he would turn around and then do something that made frustrated at him. He seemed to me to be flawed, and I don't know if it was because of the curse, or if his inherent personality made things even worse.
Would things have been different if his mother had not sent him away? She could have gone with him if it really was too dangerous for him to stay.
I think the love he and Nienor felt was really love, but it was the bond of blood, which then was mistaken for romantic love. That was such a shame. It surprises me that they both ended up killing themselves. I'm trying to think of other true suicides in ME.
I was very upset when he killed Beleg! I know it was an accident, but rrrrrrrr. I think that scene and the scene where he finds Nienor would look really good dramatized onscreen, BTW. The pictures in my mind at those points were very vivid.

[Lord Manafirogh]

I'd say he would have been a great men. He would have done great things that men would have sung songs of, but probably he would still have been a little arrogant. But a warrior to admire.

I think even with the curse Turin was still a great warrior. Where ever he went everyone seemed to like him and wanted him to be their ruler or he would just take charge in battle anyway. I think he was a little arrogant because he was son of Hurin and was brough up by Thingol.

[Lalaith]

I think he was a little arrogant because he was son of Hurin and was brough up by Thingol.

Good point. I think you're right. And maybe the curse caused his arrogant character.

[azalea]

Maybe he became a jerk because he was brought up by Thingol!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Very good point.

[Falagar]

A very fine point indeed...

[Lord Manafirogh]

Maybe he became a jerk because he was brought up by Thingol!

What i ment is that maybe because he was brought up by thingol king of doriath, Turin could have though that he was great.
Any way why don't you make a point then since your so smart!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lord Manafirogh
What i ment is that maybe because he was brought up by thingol king of doriath, Turin could have though that he was great.
Any way why don't you make a point then since your so smart!

My opinion of Thingol is that he was a self centered arrogant jerk that thrived off of the power of his wife. He was rude to the Noldor upon their arrival to Middle-earth. He was very arrogant if not racist towards Men. The fact that he mellowed in later years does not excuse him. He sent Beren on a quest that he was sure would mean his death, nomatter how much it would hurt his daughter, and should have known that she would follow him, putting her at risk. He inadvertantly caused his nephews death by this scheme, knowing that Beren would turn to Finrod for help. [talk about a kinslayer] and then, like the true idiot he was, took the Silmaril and in his greedy state was killed for it.

As for Turin, he was under a curse and that was one thing. He also I think had a great deal of pride which is another, so I won't place the burden on Thingol, but will say that if he were my dad, I would have been out of there too.

Btw, where would Thingol have been without Mrs. Maia?

[Maedhros]

My opinion of Thingol is that he was a self centered arrogant jerk that thrived off of the power of his wife. He was rude to the Noldor upon their arrival to Middle-earth. He was very arrogant if not racist towards Men. The fact that he mellowed in later years does not excuse him. He sent Beren on a quest that he was sure would mean his death, nomatter how much it would hurt his daughter, and should have known that she would follow him, putting her at risk. He inadvertantly caused his nephews death by this scheme, knowing that Beren would turn to Finrod for help. [talk about a kinslayer] and then, like the true idiot he was, took the Silmaril and in his greedy state was killed for it.

Hmmmm, Beren asked Finrod for help? In the case of the Steadfast, it was he who helped a Ñoldorian king.
Not even I have that low of an opinion of Thingol. It goes to show that only the dumb elves would look for such a character and that Oromë errered big time in selecting such an elf for an ambassador.
Túrin was never in control of his life, he seems to me that he was always reacting and never he took the initiative. He didn't trust his friend.

Btw, where would Thingol have been without Mrs. Maia?

Thingol is a pitiful excuse for an elf.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Beren asked Finrod for help?

Yep. He asked him for help on a quest that Thingol sent him on in the hopes of him never returning. Beren had shown the Ring of Barahir to Thingol, so when Thingol devised his treacherous little plan, he knew that Beren would go straight to Finrod for aid.

[Maedhros]

Yep. He asked him for help on a quest that Thingol sent him on in the hopes of him never returning. Beren had shown the Ring of Barahir to Thingol, so when Thingol devised his treacherous little plan, he knew that Beren would go straight to Finrod for aid.

Interesting, but are you telling me that Beren ask Finrod to go with him to a very dangerous quest that had the purpose for Beren to get married?
Sounds a little selfish to me.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Interesting, but are you telling me that Beren ask Finrod to go with him to a very dangerous quest that had the purpose for Beren to get married?
Sounds a little selfish to me.

That about sums it up.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Lord Manafirogh

Any way why don't you make a point then since your so smart!

???I thought I just did! I was kidding, but I was actually half-serious, although I'm sure Tolkien did not intend what I was suggesting. I mean, if a boy is raised by a male who is self-centered and proud, he's bound to be self-centered and proud as well. It would of course depend on just how closely Thingol was involved in Turin's upbringing.
Maybe the Curse was actually that Turin would have to be brought up by Thingol, and the rest was just incidental!

A question re: the above posts: But didn't Finrod have a motivation as well, to try to retrieve the Silmarils? It wasn't JUST about Beren's love-life, was it? Prhaps Finrod saw it as an opportunity of sorts?

(LM, I think you thought I was making fun of your post. I wasn't, I was just expressing a funny thought. Either that or you're a Thingol-lover, in which case, my condolences ).

[Sister Golden Hair]

A question re: the above posts: But didn't Finrod have a motivation as well, to try to retrieve the Silmarils? It wasn't JUST about Beren's love-life, was it? Prhaps Finrod saw it as an opportunity of sorts?

No.

From the published Silmarillion.

Thus Beren came before King Finrod Felagund; and Felagund knew him, needing no ring to remind him of the kin of Bëor and of Barahir. Behind closed doors they sat, and Beren told of the death of Barahir, and of all that had befallen him in Doriath; and he wept, recalling Lúthien and their joy together. But Felagund heard his tale in wonder and disquiet; and he knew that the oath he had sworn was come upon him for his death, as long before he had foretold to Galadriel. He spoke then to Beren in heaviness of heart. 'It is plain that Thingol desires your death; but it seems that this doom goes beyond his purpose, and that the Oath of Fëanor is again at work. For the Silmarils are cursed with an oath of hatred, and he that even names them in desire moves a great power from slumber; and the sons of Fëanor would lay all the Elf-kingdoms in ruin rather than suffer any other than themselves to win or possess a Silmaril, for the Oath drives them. And now Celegorm and Curufin are dwelling in my halls; and though I, Finarfin's son, am King, they have won a strong power in the realm, and lead many of their own people. They have shown friendship to me in every need, but I fear that they will show neither love nor mercy to you, if your quest be told. Yet my own oath holds; and thus we are all ensnared.'

[Lalaith]

I like the thought of blaming Thingol, as I think he was a very arrogant and selfish character. But has not been all his fault. Think about the dragon, and Morgoth and Turin himself (although I love him in the books I have to say that) had also something to do with all the bad things he did.

[Lord Manafirogh]

(LM, I think you thought I was making fun of your post. I wasn't, I was just expressing a funny thought. Either that or you're a Thingol-lover, in which case, my condolences ).

Well ok. Sorry about that.
Thingol is not one of my favourite people, in fact I don't really like him. How could he claim the Simaril? What did he do apart from sending Beren to his quest which seemed like committing suicide. Didn’t really do anything to impress me.

[azalea]

SGH, putting it that way, with the quote you gave, really takes Beren down a notch in my eyes! I mean, love is a grand thing, but to put another in mortal danger, esp. an important elf like Finrod, for it is irresponsible. I wouldn't have been able to live w/ myself! Anyway, back OT...

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by azalea
SGH, putting it that way, with the quote you gave, really takes Beren down a notch in my eyes! I mean, love is a grand thing, but to put another in mortal danger, esp. an important elf like Finrod, for it is irresponsible. I wouldn't have been able to live w/ myself! Anyway, back OT...

Just to comment on your post azalea. You must understand that Finrod had sworn an oath of abiding friendship to Barahir and his kin. So it was only logical for Beren to turn to Finrod when he needed help. It was help guaranteed.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
My opinion of Thingol is that he was a self centered arrogant jerk that thrived off of the power of his wife. He was rude to the Noldor upon their arrival to Middle-earth. He was very arrogant if not racist towards Men. The fact that he mellowed in later years does not excuse him. He sent Beren on a quest that he was sure would mean his death, nomatter how much it would hurt his daughter, and should have known that she would follow him, putting her at risk. He inadvertantly caused his nephews death by this scheme, knowing that Beren would turn to Finrod for help. [talk about a kinslayer] and then, like the true idiot he was, took the Silmaril and in his greedy state was killed for it.

Thats a wonderful synopsis Sis. But you should also look at it from his point of view. he wasnt a very nice guy but he was thinking of his people too when he didnt want anyone interfering in his little realm. its the safest way he figured. and he saw the returning elves (and the humans) as outsiders who would only bring trouble. and they did really. doesnt mean hes justified in his actions but you can certainly understand his motivation.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Thats a wonderful synopsis Sis. But you should also look at it from his point of view. he wasnt a very nice guy but he was thinking of his people too when he didnt want anyone interfering in his little realm. its the safest way he figured. and he saw the returning elves (and the humans) as outsiders who would only bring trouble. and they did really. doesnt mean hes justified in his actions but you can certainly understand his motivation.

Nope. That's like saying the world belongs to me and isn't big enough for both of us.