Relativism VS. Absoulte - Page 3

Wayfarer · 03-12-2002, 08:33 PM

Nope.

But then again... I don't have darth tater's great patience, do I?

]: )

Equal doesn't mean identical, or even similar. You and I, for instance, seem to have a lot in common. But are we somehow better or worse than Frodo Friend, who's quite a bit different?

Also from a christian viewpoint.

Quote:

All have screwed up. Badly. Nobody even comes close to God's Glory.

Quote:

Nobody is good. Not even you. Seriously.

The Slanted View Translation of the New Testament. ]: )

I.E. Everybody is equally seperated from God.

Get the Idea?

As far as naming species... I suppose you're right. But are you going to convince me that this pursuit was somehow related to Adam's Morals? He had do do something, what with eve not yet in the picture. ]: )

afro-elf · 03-12-2002, 08:56 PM

Quote:

As far as naming species... I suppose you're right. But are you going to convince me that this pursuit was somehow related to Adam's Morals? He had do do something, what with eve not yet in the picture. ]: )

he was infringing upon their rights to be left unnammed

Quote:

believe the book of Samuel is from the Old Testament, afro-elf? Most Christian doctrine today is from the New Testament, with Jesus as the star player (correct me if I'm wrong, all ye Christians!). That doesn't mean Christians are hypocrites, just that ideas of morality have changed.

christians also quote the 10 commandmants and thats old testament

people use the bible to better their arguments.

If the OT works use it. if the NT works use if they both work use it

Quote:

But metaphysically (if you believe in anything metaphysical), yes.

not anymore

afro-elf · 03-12-2002, 09:06 PM

tater is this what you meant?

some parts of psalm 136:

To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:

But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.

To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:

And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:

emplynx · 03-12-2002, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf

christians also quote the 10 commandmants and thats old testament

people use the bible to better their arguments.

If the OT works use it. if the NT works use if they both work use it

I may not be expressing the views of all Christians here, just my opinion.
Christians do quote much of the Old Testament law as good standards to live by, BUT the epistles of the New Testament make clear that Jesus was/is the fullfillment of the Law and now we don't need to spend all our time following the law like to pharisees did. Jesus stressed that we need to be more careful what is in our hearts and that will be reflected in our actions. If anyone thinks I am wrong theologically, please correct me, I am not a Bible expert, I am a highschool student.

CardenIAntauraNauco · 03-12-2002, 09:13 PM

God is a loving god but he is a just god. That's why people are going to hell. That's why Babylon was destroyed, that's why Amalek and there nations were destroyed. They were evil and followed there evil.

Rom 6:23 says the wages of sin is death. You and I deserve death for every sin we commit. This is the order God set long before Amalek and Babylon. God was not wrong for sending them the punishment they deserved.

afro-elf · 03-12-2002, 09:22 PM

ARRGHH !!!!! not this again

I have( and others) have refuted this on another thread.

it is something like frodo and sam/religious beliefs

CardenIAntauraNauco · 03-12-2002, 09:25 PM

Let me get this straight,
Your mad because I layed down a defense for my belief that god is a loving god and you "refuted" it on another thread". Then by all means COPY AND PASTE

afro-elf · 03-12-2002, 09:42 PM

I am not mad just tried.

just this has been debated up and down and round and around here it is about ten pages long. and instead of open another thread again you can go here

http://www.tolkientrail.com/entmoot/...&threadid=2186

Wayfarer · 03-12-2002, 10:07 PM

"A choice is set before you now
Life or death
Blessings or curses
choose life"

~Moses somewhere...

The thing is, God doesn't want anybody to die. Really. He is... how was it put "not willing that any would perish". And so he provided a way for anybody-no matter what they have done- to have life. Ultimately, through faith in christ.

But he's not going to force anyone to make that choice. That would completely negate the point. And so, if you do choose to reject salvation, you will suffer the consequences. God is loving, yes, but he's also just. He cannot go back on his word, no matter how much he wishes to spare us pain. It's the ultimate ultimatum. An either/or propisition.

God loves us all, and he doesn't want to see anybody suffer... but it's impossible to have life apart from God. And so to reject him is to choose death. It's like walking off of a cliff. Sure, it's your choice... but you're going to pay for it. And that's how it is... Just like gravity, it's something that applies to everyone. But unlike gravity, you can get out of it. All you have to do is ask.

ok... sorry for the speech. I hope you understand my point of View, Afro Elf. And please Darth...don't get mad at me. Ok?

]: )

FrodoFriend · 03-12-2002, 10:11 PM

I rather like my life apart from God.

Can I ask that we stop this thought right there? There are other threads for religious debates. Relativism vs. absolutism, folks!

Wayfarer · 03-12-2002, 10:26 PM

I thought we'd settled that one. ]: )

afro-elf · 03-12-2002, 10:29 PM

you go yahew and i'll go mine

to the Vulcan philosophy of IDIC

infinite diveristy infinite combinations

FrodoFriend · 03-12-2002, 10:37 PM

"IDIC"?

Starr Polish · 03-12-2002, 10:46 PM

::dives in::

I agree with Wayfarer on most (if not all) points. The Christian belief is based on love. Love for God, from God, and to others, even if they don't believe as you do. I also agree that VERY few Christians follow this, and none follow it all the time (yes, including me

). Simply because I state I'm Christian doesn't mean that I am any better than someone who doesn't state it. Too many 'Christians' act 'holier than thou' (sin of the Pharisees, I believe) and this isn't what we're supposed to do.

Me? I think I'm absolute, but I'm still deciding my standing on everything.

afro-elf · 03-12-2002, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FrodoFriend
"IDIC"?

its from star trek

infinite diveristy in infinite combinations

FrodoFriend · 03-12-2002, 11:02 PM

Ah, thank you, afro-elf.

Starr - I posted this one before, because I was confused about it, but you brought it up again, so I'll repost.

"How can one person say "My morals are absolute"? Aren't both relativism and absolutism comparisons? Either all morals are absolute, and people who deviate from that absolute are wrong, or they're relative, and no one's wrong, or it's a mixture of those two. In any case, don't you need to take all peoples' morality into consideration?"

Nobody answered this last time. I fail to see how one person can be absolute. You have to be absolute (or relative) in comparison to everyone else.

Starr Polish · 03-12-2002, 11:31 PM

Like I said, still figuring myself out on some issues, and this isn't one I've touched on much before.

I'll get back to you

Let me ponder that piece of meat for awhile (I know I said goodbye in the chatroom, I'm 'cheating')

CardenIAntauraNauco · 03-13-2002, 02:22 PM

No no no no FF ......
"MY morales" implies relative not absolute. We don't say that there OUR morales our correct. We simply say there is a morale law which is true and we are all trying to find it. It seems like theyre is a pattern in civilizations as to what is wrong. So we believe that is the law.

If someone won't return money to you that you loaned them. You say to them

"Give me back my money"
"no"
"why not?"
"because you stole my boyfriend"
OR
"because you killed my mom"
or whatever
but they never say
"who says I should? What do I care about your Moral law?"

Why not? It seems in every civilization there is an intrensic right and wrong. It seems that people expect without question for people to follow that moral law?

Valour is virtuous in every civilization throughout history. As is loyalty, honesty, compassion,and honor. No one likes a traitor even if their from another country and they are helping them they still don't like the dishonor. Humility has never disgusted anyone. But pride has many a time.

You would think peoples sense of Right and wrong is different in different societies. But not one culture says it is wrong to be Honest it is right to lie. It is wrong to be courageous it is right to slink away from battle.

______

In the bible it gives us moral absolutes. I and others because we find the bible to be true for a good many reasons (which I will not go into unless someone asks). Therefore we believe in biblical absolutes. We believe that that is the truth. The actual moral code.

We in fact believe that other people are wrong and do not follow the moral code not that they have their own morals. We believe that everybody is either close or far away from that morale standard. If you would like to know why I think the biblical standard is the right standard ask me.

noldo · 03-13-2002, 03:31 PM

Tater, why did you close the homosexuality discussion? I want blood.

FrodoFriend · 03-13-2002, 03:55 PM

Carden, the reason there are similar elements in all moral codes is because we want to make life easier for ourselves. Murder is wrong in all societies because we don't want to die. Loyalty is virtuous because we all want to have loyal friends.
People's sense of right and wrong does not differ to a huge degree because we all have similar desires (life, love, etc.), and our morals reflect a wish to procure and preserve those desires.

Morals are made up to fulfill instincts for self-preservation and happiness. They are not, however, absolute, and I certainly disagree that the Bible is the absolute we should all go by. Come on, think of people who have never read or don't agree with the Bible. Lifestyles are changing, and we have to change our moral systems to maintain order and continue looking out for our own welfare.

03-12-2002, 09:06 PM	#43
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	tater is this what you meant? some parts of psalm 136: To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever: But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever. To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever: And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever: __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-12-2002, 09:13 PM	#45
CardenIAntauraNauco Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: rural oklahoma Posts: 324	God is a loving god but he is a just god. That's why people are going to hell. That's why Babylon was destroyed, that's why Amalek and there nations were destroyed. They were evil and followed there evil. Rom 6:23 says the wages of sin is death. You and I deserve death for every sin we commit. This is the order God set long before Amalek and Babylon. God was not wrong for sending them the punishment they deserved. __________________ "We will have peace","Yes we will have peace...we will have peace when you and all your works have perished - and the works of your dark lord to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar,Saruman,and a corrupter of men's hearts. You hold out your hand to me and I percieve only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just - as it was not,for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine, for your own profit you desired-even so, what will you say of your Torches in westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Hama's body before the gates of Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanc. So much for the House of Eorl. A lesser son of greater Sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewither for I fear your voice has lost it's charm.

03-12-2002, 09:22 PM	#46
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	ARRGHH !!!!! not this again I have( and others) have refuted this on another thread. it is something like frodo and sam/religious beliefs __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-12-2002, 09:25 PM	#47
CardenIAntauraNauco Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: rural oklahoma Posts: 324	Let me get this straight, Your mad because I layed down a defense for my belief that god is a loving god and you "refuted" it on another thread". Then by all means COPY AND PASTE __________________ "We will have peace","Yes we will have peace...we will have peace when you and all your works have perished - and the works of your dark lord to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar,Saruman,and a corrupter of men's hearts. You hold out your hand to me and I percieve only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just - as it was not,for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine, for your own profit you desired-even so, what will you say of your Torches in westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Hama's body before the gates of Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanc. So much for the House of Eorl. A lesser son of greater Sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewither for I fear your voice has lost it's charm.

03-12-2002, 09:42 PM	#48
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	I am not mad just tried. just this has been debated up and down and round and around here it is about ten pages long. and instead of open another thread again you can go here http://www.tolkientrail.com/entmoot/...&threadid=2186 __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-12-2002, 10:07 PM	#49
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	"A choice is set before you now Life or death Blessings or curses choose life" ~Moses somewhere... The thing is, God doesn't want anybody to die. Really. He is... how was it put "not willing that any would perish". And so he provided a way for anybody-no matter what they have done- to have life. Ultimately, through faith in christ. But he's not going to force anyone to make that choice. That would completely negate the point. And so, if you do choose to reject salvation, you will suffer the consequences. God is loving, yes, but he's also just. He cannot go back on his word, no matter how much he wishes to spare us pain. It's the ultimate ultimatum. An either/or propisition. God loves us all, and he doesn't want to see anybody suffer... but it's impossible to have life apart from God. And so to reject him is to choose death. It's like walking off of a cliff. Sure, it's your choice... but you're going to pay for it. And that's how it is... Just like gravity, it's something that applies to everyone. But unlike gravity, you can get out of it. All you have to do is ask. ok... sorry for the speech. I hope you understand my point of View, Afro Elf. And please Darth...don't get mad at me. Ok? ]: ) __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

03-12-2002, 10:11 PM	#50
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	I rather like my life apart from God. Can I ask that we stop this thought right there? There are other threads for religious debates. Relativism vs. absolutism, folks! __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

03-12-2002, 10:26 PM	#51
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	I thought we'd settled that one. ]: ) __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

03-12-2002, 10:29 PM	#52
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	you go yahew and i'll go mine to the Vulcan philosophy of IDIC infinite diveristy infinite combinations __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-12-2002, 10:37 PM	#53
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	"IDIC"? __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

03-12-2002, 10:46 PM	#54
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	::dives in:: I agree with Wayfarer on most (if not all) points. The Christian belief is based on love. Love for God, from God, and to others, even if they don't believe as you do. I also agree that VERY few Christians follow this, and none follow it all the time (yes, including me ). Simply because I state I'm Christian doesn't mean that I am any better than someone who doesn't state it. Too many 'Christians' act 'holier than thou' (sin of the Pharisees, I believe) and this isn't what we're supposed to do. Me? I think I'm absolute, but I'm still deciding my standing on everything. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

03-12-2002, 11:02 PM	#56
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	Ah, thank you, afro-elf. Starr - I posted this one before, because I was confused about it, but you brought it up again, so I'll repost. "How can one person say "My morals are absolute"? Aren't both relativism and absolutism comparisons? Either all morals are absolute, and people who deviate from that absolute are wrong, or they're relative, and no one's wrong, or it's a mixture of those two. In any case, don't you need to take all peoples' morality into consideration?" Nobody answered this last time. I fail to see how one person can be absolute. You have to be absolute (or relative) in comparison to everyone else. __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

03-12-2002, 11:31 PM	#57
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Like I said, still figuring myself out on some issues, and this isn't one I've touched on much before. I'll get back to you Let me ponder that piece of meat for awhile (I know I said goodbye in the chatroom, I'm 'cheating') __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

03-13-2002, 02:22 PM	#58
CardenIAntauraNauco Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: rural oklahoma Posts: 324	No no no no FF ...... "MY morales" implies relative not absolute. We don't say that there OUR morales our correct. We simply say there is a morale law which is true and we are all trying to find it. It seems like theyre is a pattern in civilizations as to what is wrong. So we believe that is the law. If someone won't return money to you that you loaned them. You say to them "Give me back my money" "no" "why not?" "because you stole my boyfriend" OR "because you killed my mom" or whatever but they never say "who says I should? What do I care about your Moral law?" Why not? It seems in every civilization there is an intrensic right and wrong. It seems that people expect without question for people to follow that moral law? Valour is virtuous in every civilization throughout history. As is loyalty, honesty, compassion,and honor. No one likes a traitor even if their from another country and they are helping them they still don't like the dishonor. Humility has never disgusted anyone. But pride has many a time. You would think peoples sense of Right and wrong is different in different societies. But not one culture says it is wrong to be Honest it is right to lie. It is wrong to be courageous it is right to slink away from battle. ______ In the bible it gives us moral absolutes. I and others because we find the bible to be true for a good many reasons (which I will not go into unless someone asks). Therefore we believe in biblical absolutes. We believe that that is the truth. The actual moral code. We in fact believe that other people are wrong and do not follow the moral code not that they have their own morals. We believe that everybody is either close or far away from that morale standard. If you would like to know why I think the biblical standard is the right standard ask me. __________________ "We will have peace","Yes we will have peace...we will have peace when you and all your works have perished - and the works of your dark lord to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar,Saruman,and a corrupter of men's hearts. You hold out your hand to me and I percieve only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just - as it was not,for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine, for your own profit you desired-even so, what will you say of your Torches in westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Hama's body before the gates of Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanc. So much for the House of Eorl. A lesser son of greater Sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewither for I fear your voice has lost it's charm.

03-13-2002, 03:31 PM	#59
noldo Elven Icon Maker Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Finland Posts: 517	Tater, why did you close the homosexuality discussion? I want blood.

03-13-2002, 03:55 PM	#60
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	Carden, the reason there are similar elements in all moral codes is because we want to make life easier for ourselves. Murder is wrong in all societies because we don't want to die. Loyalty is virtuous because we all want to have loyal friends. People's sense of right and wrong does not differ to a huge degree because we all have similar desires (life, love, etc.), and our morals reflect a wish to procure and preserve those desires. Morals are made up to fulfill instincts for self-preservation and happiness. They are not, however, absolute, and I certainly disagree that the Bible is the absolute we should all go by. Come on, think of people who have never read or don't agree with the Bible. Lifestyles are changing, and we have to change our moral systems to maintain order and continue looking out for our own welfare. __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

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