On the death of Arwen

[Ingwe]

Gandalf's words ("...White shores, and a far green country...") with Pippin seems to say that even in death there is hope and so Tolkien's views on that are very encouraging. Arwen's passing after the loss of Aragorn I would like to believe is not altogether hopeless and full of despair, for in death there could be life, given that death is referred to as a Gift so many times. Death removes the sorrows and tears that life flooded you with. "We are not bound forever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory..." <- seems to say, at least to me, that more than memory is sort of like saying the sorrow in life that we felt not only from what we're going through at the present, but also harmful memories from the past, are cleared (perhaps not cleared, but no longer matter anymore), and all there will be is the Great Reunion after life has passed.

Believing in that Great Reunion and celebration of the loss of sorrow after life passes on is sometimes what helps people keep their sanity, but I'd rather believe that it's more than that (perhaps to further reinforce my own sanity). I don't believe in any end of any kind, that somehow everything is one day reorganized again to make a new world (aka the prophecy of the end, which really isn't the end at all). The Elves have a certain amount of time to live, and aren't much different than humans. Eventually the old world will fade away with time, even the Valar themselves will fade over time apparently (Elves as The Organization of Future Valar of Ea 2.0?). Those who refused to be summoned to Aman exist as wraiths or ghosts, which I kind of think is even more tragic than the story of Arwen and Aragorn. The world would change around them and they'd have no impact on how it changes. As much as they'd like to change things (either for the better or otherwise depending on how changing into a wraith affected their personalities), they can't. They will (sort of) live on and have no affect on anything until the end of this world. It's like limbo, except that they haven't even been judged yet at the Halls of Mandos. So they have a long time to grieve about the sorrows they still remember, and regret the choices they made in staying behind while the rest of their kin moved on to the west. That's gotta be quite painful and however they live must be pretty harsh. That's why most of the ghosts you hear about seem to have an unpleasant or bitter personality, sort of like the Army of the Dead. If I were cursed with something like that and forced to live 2,000 years in a mountain, unable to do anything else except think about what I did, until someone labeling himself the King of Gondor came around, I'd be pretty unpleasant as well I'd imagine. "Dang it, why won't the King of Gondor come here. I'm getting restless! Well it's time for dinner, if there were such thing for a ghost." They can't even eat! So life for the remainder of the Elves that stayed behind must be quite similar. "Well, let's play cards for the 40 millionth time in a row." I have no idea what I'd do with my time if I were a wraith or a ghost. Haunting people would get old after a while too.

Originally Posted by Landroval

I wonder how much of his affection for Galadriel came from the fact that she petted his dwarven ego in Lothlorien (that was evil, I know).

LoL. Gimli sure changed his tune on Elves quite quickly upon meeting her that's for sure.

[Olmer]

Is there, in Tolkien's text, any indication that the Elves, who decided to stay behind, are eventually turning into wraiths?

Gimli sure changed his tune on Elves quite quickly upon meeting her that's for sure

The skill of persuasion is a powerful weapon.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Ingwe

Gimli sure changed his tune on Elves quite quickly upon meeting her that's for sure.

That is the effect respect and caring can have on a person. We all know from personal experience that, yes, sometimes just one person can make all the difference in the world for another. I only wish we had more of it in the real world.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Is there, in Tolkien's text, any indication that the Elves, who decided to stay behind, are eventually turning into wraiths?

Here is the quote about the Lingerers - faded invisible Elves, who still dwell in ME, but mostly belong to the World of Shadow. I am not sure they could be called "wraiths" but anyway they are close enough to them.

Morgoth’s Ring (HoME 10), The Later Quenta Sil., Laws and Customs among the Eldar

“the Lingerers, whose bodily forms may no longer be seen by us mortals, or seen only dimly and fitfully"
“Moreover, the Lingerers are not houseless, though they may seem to be. They do not desire bodies, neither do they seek shelter, nor strive for mastery over body or mind. Indeed they do not seek converse with Men at all, save maybe rarely, either for the doing of some good, or because they perceive in a Man's spirit some love of things ancient and fair. Then they may reveal to him their forms (through his mind working outwardly, maybe), and he will behold them in their beauty.”

“Thus it may be seen that those who in latter days hold that the Elves are dangerous to Men and that it is folly or wickedness to seek converse with them do not speak without reason. For how, it may be asked, shall a mortal distinguish the kinds [Lingerers and Houseless]?”

“Yet the answer is not in truth difficult. Evil is not one thing among Elves and another among Men. Those who give evil counsel, or speak against the Rulers (or if they dare, against the One), are evil, and should be shunned whether bodied or unbodied.”

[Ingwe]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

That is the effect respect and caring can have on a person. We all know from personal experience that, yes, sometimes just one person can make all the difference in the world for another. I only wish we had more of it in the real world.

Agreed, but seeing it from Gimli would have seemed surprising, given how the Dwarves see the Elves most of the time.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Here is the quote about the Lingerers - faded invisible Elves, who still dwell in ME, but mostly belong to the World of Shadow. I am not sure they could be called "wraiths" but anyway they are close enough to them.

Yep, that's the one. I'm kinda stupid so I called them wraiths.

[Olmer]

I am aware of this note. Thank you.
Actually, I think this is what hapenned to Celeborn -he just faded away, still lingering on earth.
I was surprised to find the wraiths among elves.

[Gordis]

Celeborn? You think he preferred to fade than to be reunited with his spouse?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Celeborn? You think he preferred to fade than to be reunited with his spouse?

Was not it too obvious?

[Belwen_of_nargothrond]

I've wondered this same thing myself. I never was much interested in the relationship between Arwen and Aragorn, but Arwen's passing seems to be the saddest of all. I've wondered why didn't she stay in Minus Tirith? Why couldn't she be placed beside Aragorn when she passed?

Then I thought about myself and I realized I'm the same way. I have people who love me and who I love. My parents are gone and I loved them more than anything, but when my time comes, I don't want to be buried with them. I grew up in the Appalachian Mts and though there is really nothing left for me there now, I want to be buried there because it's the place in my life where I was the happiest. So in some ways, I can relate to Arwen. I often get the urge to go back to my "home".

[Jon S.]

Just the other day I told my own wife, "Honey, we're married 'til death do us part ... and after that, I'm a free man." Can't understand why she smacked me!

All right, joking's over. Seriously, what happened to Arwen when Aragorn died is really no different from what happens to many of us, every day, when a loved one dies. We all have the choice to find new purpose in life or to surrender and become the figurative equivalent of a living wraith.

Arwen's reaction upon Aragorn's death made for good reading and perhaps was inevitable given her Elven heritage but to be perfectly frank it is neither the norm nor admirable.

[Gordis]

Somehow such reaction seems a norm for the Elves. Once their spouse is gone, they loose interest for life. The idea of "living on for the sake of their children" - quite usual for Men (esp. women) - seems totally alien to them.

Take Melian. Thingol is dead and she even drops her Girdle, putting all her people (including her very own grandson) in mortal danger.
Elwing is even worse - abandoning her 2 sons in perilous situation without a second thought - everything for her husband.
Mithrellas - once her mortal husband is dead (or had he just grown old? - I am too lazy to check) she disappears. Imagine, she could have stayed around singing songs and telling tales to her children, grand-children, great-great-great-grandchildren - all the way to Prince Imrahil.
Arwen - I guess the grown-up Eldarion didn't really need her anymore. But his kids surely loved granny Arwen...

Some women show similar behaviour: Rian, Tuor's mother and the widow of Huor, had just given birth to her son and then "departed from Hithlum, and going to the Haudh-en-Ndengin she laid herself down upon it and died".
This attitude always seemed most "inhuman" and quite selfish to me.

Contrast it to Turin's mom, Morwen. She must have believed her husband dead and lost forever, but she lived for her children - even on occupied territory, even sending Turin away to safety. She is the one to admire.

[Valandil]

Interesting thought.

Interesting also - that Arwen had prior personal experience in it. After all, her mother went away over sea, leaving her father alone. So Elrond was actually another (rare) case of someone 'hanging on' afterwards (and so was her maternal grandfather, Celeborn).

Maybe Arwen noticed some major changes for her father once her mother was gone - and didn't like to think of them happening to her... ??

[Jon S.]

Not comparable situations to me. An Elf leaving ME for Valinor could be visited again by also returning to Valinor. Arwen, in contrast, could visit Aragorn (if at all) only by also dying ... which of course, she soon did.

In 2509, Elrond's wife Celebrian was captured by Orcs in the Redhorn Gate while she was journeying to Lothlorien. She received a poisoned wound and was tormented by the Orcs before her sons Elladan and Elrohir found her and rescued her. Elrond was able to heal her physical wounds, but Celebrian remained troubled by her memories and fear and she could no longer find joy in Middle-earth. She left Middle-earth in 2510 and sailed over the Sea to the Undying Lands.

http://www.tuckborough.net/elrond.html