The Gift of Death

[Reumandar]

what was Beren ?

[Ñólendil]

He was a Man, a human-being, if that's what you're asking.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Beren was a Man of the Edain that fell in love with one of the greatest Elves to ever live. Luthien.

[Wayfarer]

Not just a man, he was the most fortunate man ever to walk on the face of the earth...

[afro-elf]

Luthein was 1/2 calaquendi and 1/2 maia

[Radagast The Brown]

He was the son of Barahir. His son was Dior(spell mistake, sorry):1/4 Maia, 1/4 elf and 1/2 human.

[Reumandar]

But didn't Beren Go to Mandos when He died the first time?
dosen't it say something like
"And then TÃ*nuveil (might be spelt wrong) went to (not exactly what the book said) the hall's of Mandos to plea for Beren..."
(In the book of lost tales 2)

But of course I might be wrong
I am very confused

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Reumandar
But didn't Beren Go to Mandos when He died the first time?
dosen't it say something like
"And then TÃ*nuveil (might be spelt wrong) went to (not exactly what the book said) the hall's of Mandos to plea for Beren..."
(In the book of lost tales 2)

But of course I might be wrong
I am very confused

Beren was the only Man to ever return from the dead. Luthien died the next year, and when she went to the Halls of Mandos, she was so grieved and she sang to Mandos and he was so moved by her, that he gave her the choice of either returning to Valinor where she could live to the end of the world without the burdens of her grief that she knew in life. But here, Beren could not come. Or, she could return to Middle-earth with Beren and live again, but she would be subject to the grief of the world and become mortal and subject to a second death. The second was her choice.

As for Beren going to Mandos, I think that the Elves speculated that Men also go to Mandos, but their place of awaiting is not that of the Elves.

[Tar-Elendil]

just to let you know..lost tales two is extremely different in some spots. Like Beren is an elf. Huan fought tevildo(sp?).
read over "Of Beren and Lúthien" in The Silmarillion a couple more times and youll get..hmm whats the word..unconfused?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Tar-Elendil
just to let you know..lost tales two is extremely different in some spots. Like Beren is an elf. Huan fought tevildo(sp?).
read over "Of Beren and Lúthien" in The Silmarillion a couple more times and youll get..hmm whats the word..unconfused?

The BoLTs is the old mythology.

[Ñólendil]

Not just a man, he was the most fortunate man ever to walk on the face of the earth...

Do you really think so? Have you forgotten the horrible losses of the Dagor Bragollach, or the deaths of his outlaw comrades, including his cousins and father (who were murded by Sauron's folk before being partway gobbled up by crows). And what about all the battles he had to go through afterwards in Dorthonion, and what about when the army was raised against him and he had to go through Nan Dungortheb, the Valley of Dreadful Death? What about his torment in the pits of Tol-in-Gaurhoth, watching his friends eaten alive one by one by Werewolves, before watching his best friend die fighting one with his bear hands, so that he himself would not meet the same fate? And is anyone who meets Morgoth Bauglir at any time very lucky? I dunno about you, but I wouldn't want to take a walk through Hell. And then he had his guts ripped out by the Red Maw. Sure everything turned out okay for him in the end and there were lots of good parts, but I wouldn't call him lucky.

As a matter of fact, the only lucky people are the people not mentioned in the histories. That one guy that lives his quiet boring life as a farmer, gets married and has lots of unimportant babies before dying of old age, that guy was lucky.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

So would you say, Nolendil, that the 'gift of death' is lucky, then, and that you would choose that?

I have often thought about this question, and I do believe that death could indeed be considered a gift, but it's hard. There comes a point, I'm sure, when the world just gets too...old. And that's the point when one would be glad of that gift (I guess there is never anything about elves taking their own lives? No, wouldn't make any sense. . .) But I think over all I would choose not to have the 'gift of death.'

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf
So would you say, Nolendil, that the 'gift of death' is lucky, then, and that you would choose that?

I have often thought about this question, and I do believe that death could indeed be considered a gift, but it's hard. There comes a point, I'm sure, when the world just gets too...old. And that's the point when one would be glad of that gift (I guess there is never anything about elves taking their own lives? No, wouldn't make any sense. . .) But I think over all I would choose not to have the 'gift of death.'

Well, there were Elves that took their own lives. Maedhros for instance, cast himself into the chasm with the Silmaril. Other Elves succumbed to death from grief, such as Arwen, even Luthien. As I said in an earlier post, death was intended to be a gift from Iluvatar, but somewhere along the line, it became tainted by Men and was no longer a desireable thing.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Thanks for pointing that out--I haven't gotten very far in the Silmarillion yet, I am afraid
And I guess I didn't think about the choice to die of grief, like Arwen and Luthien.

It is understandable that death would become tainted when people start going around killing each other, but I suppose that started before men, right?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf
Thanks for pointing that out--I haven't gotten very far in the Silmarillion yet, I am afraid
And I guess I didn't think about the choice to die of grief, like Arwen and Luthien.

It is understandable that death would become tainted when people start going around killing each other, but I suppose that started before men, right?

Yes, that was happening among the Elves, but death was never their fate. Apparently according to Morgoth's Ring Men somehow turned their backs on the Valar and Iluvatar and sided with Morgoth, which tainted the Gift of death.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

That makes sense then. . .maybe I should go read the Sil. for myself, sooner, rather than learning all this here.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf
That makes sense then. . .maybe I should go read the Sil. for myself, sooner, rather than learning all this here.

Good idea. Here can be a spoiler.

[Tar-Elendil]

The BoLTs is the old mythology.

i know..thats why i said to read back over the beren and luthien part of the sil..there are drastic changes between the two

[Ñólendil]

So would you say, Nolendil, that the 'gift of death' is lucky, then, and that you would choose that?

No, I would not put it so. The man that dies after long torment and agony does not change the nature of death, in my opinion. It is not to me relative. In Tolkien's mythology I believe I must say that death is a gift because it was given by the One, who is good. Eru loves His children and would not give them something evil. But, of course, many Men thought death was tgiven to them by Morgoth. I think, because I have read up on it and that is the conclusion I have drawn, the fear of death and perhaps shorter life is due to Melkor/Morgoth, but death itself is natural (to Men).

I am putting it this way: imagine a world without evil. It is not easy to do, but vaguely, imagine a world where absolutely nothing is wrong. Now imagine you live in this utopian world, but that eventually, when it is time, say in 500 years, you die of old age, painlessly. Imagine lying down to rest and never getting up again. Then you go to an even better place, where your creator is. That's the vision untainted.

Now imagine a world with evil. It is not difficult, look around you and see the suffering. Or open the Lord of the Rings and read the suffering that is written there. It is not a utopia, there is evil and suffering. People don't live that long. And yet death, given by the One, and that better place, remain.

That's the philosophy (in my opinion) behind Tolkien's mythology (or legendarium as he called it). The world has been marred by Melkor, but it was not made by him and neither was death. Death belongs and no one would have any reason to fear it, were it not for Melkor.

That is not to say that death should be feared. Take me. I may fear being (say) mauled by a gigantic bear in the woods near his cave where his hungry cubs are, away from human civilization, but I'll be okay after they've ripped me up into little pieces and digested me. I'm just saying.

You know I think flies come from Morgoth. Just thought I'd share.

[Tar-Elendil]

As I said in an earlier post, death was intended to be a gift from Iluvatar, but somewhere along the line, it became tainted by Men and was no longer a desireable thing

"Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said he had come out of pity. 'Ye should not have been left alone and uninstructed,' he said. "The world is full of marvellous riches which knowledge can unlock ye could have food more abundant and more delicious than the poor things that ye now eat. Ye should have dwellings in ease, in which ye could keep light and shut out the night. Ye could be clad even as I."
Then we looked and lo! he was clad in raiment that shone like silver and gold, and he had a crown on his head, and gems in his hair. 'If ye wish to be like me,' he said, 'I will teach you.' then we took him as teacher."
This mysterious character is Morgoth among Men. Morgoth gave them gifts and they soon became dependent on him. He made them build a him a house where they should worship him. Men had heard the thoughts of Eru and they spoke to morgoth telling them of the voice. He said it was the voice of the night and wanted to devour them.
"Then in fear we spoke as he commanded, saying: 'Thou art the Lord; Thee only one we will serve. The Voice we abjure and will not hearken to it again.'
'So be it!' he said. 'Now build me a house upon a high place, and call it the House of the Lord. Thither I will come when I will. there ye shall call on Me and make your petitions to Me!'
..
Ever after we went in great dread of the Dark; but he seldom appeared among us again in fair form, and he brought few gifts. If at great need we dared to go to the house and pray to him to help us, we heard his voice, and recieved his commands. But now he would always command us to do some deed, or to give him some gift, before he would listen to our prayer; and ever the deeds became worse, and the gifts harder to give up."
Men worshipped him out of fear.
"The first Voice we never heard again, save once. In the stillness of night It spoke, saying : 'ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.' "