Glorfindel's Prophecy

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Gimme a quote and citation. I don't believe it, sorry.

Its a footnote on pg 1045

For her shield arm was broken by the mace of the Withch-king; but he was bought to nothing, and thus the words of Glorfindel long before to King Earnur were fulfilled, that the Witch-king would fall by the hand of no man. For it is said in the songs of the Mark that in this deed Eowyn had the aid of Theodens esquire, and that he also was not a man but a Halfling out of a far country, though Eomer gave him honour in the Mark and the name Holdwine

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Valandil: No - it isn't explicitly stated... you just have to kind of read between the lines and figure it out!

Yeah, JRRT isn't much on letting us into the inner lives of his villians, a point I have made before. The W-K's words to me have always echoed the prophecy, enlarged by braggodocio as RÃ*an says, and evidence that he indeed knew of the prophecy, as well as liked it.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Telecontar Dunedain: Its a footnote on pg 1045

Quote:
For her shield arm was broken by the mace of the Witch-king; but he was bought to nothing, and thus the words of Glorfindel long before to King Earnur were fulfilled, that the Witch-king would fall by the hand of no man. For it is said in the songs of the Mark that in this deed Eowyn had the aid of Theodens esquire, and that he also was not a man but a Halfling out of a far country, though Eomer gave him honour in the Mark and the name Holdwine

__________________
But this is the interpretation of the bards of the Mark, not stated as an authority. Thanks for the quote, BTW.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

No - it isn't explicitly stated... you just have to kind of read between the lines and figure it out!

You got it!!!
Now comes the fun part:to stand by your words.

Let's summarise.
I'm saying that Wich King had no idea about prophecy, and his destruction , sensed by Glorfindel, was a combination of unlikely events. Fate.

You are saying that the Witch King was somehow informed, like somebody told him:"Listen, brother, you can fight with men, but with any others will be too unhealthy for you".
So ,if he was aware and doubtful, which makes him too human (my POV), then he had been trying to avoid an open confrontation with anybody, but men. Which brings us to the incident on the Weathertop.
But by agreeing on that you basically accepting my POV that the Nazguls had a different reason besides being "scared off" by a lonely Ranger.
We "changed chairs". What do you think?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Olmer

You got it!!!
:
:
You are saying that the Witch King was somehow informed, like somebody told him:"Listen, brother, you can fight with men, but with any others will be too unhealthy for you". ...

No - that's actually not what I'm saying.

By this time it had been over 1000 years since Glorfindel made his statement to Earnur. I suspect that in this time, this 'prophecy' of his was whispered among Men and Elves... and that eventually it trickled into the intelligence of the Dark forces... if at no other time, then certainly the Witch-King had a nice chance to torture it out of Earnur himself 75 years later - when Earnur went out to face him at Minas Morgul, despite those words, and was never heard from again.

After learning this, I think the W-K would have been quite pleased with himself. In fact, he might have over-generalized the statement in his own mind... thinking that all of his opponents in this Third Age were Men, and thus that he was invincible.

Then we come to March 15, 3019... the Pelennor. The W-K has quite a bit of confidence in his invincibility versus any who would oppose him. That day he faces a lone warrior, unhorsed - but still defiant. He finds it amusing at first and declares his invincibility... the inevitable defeat of this man he faces.

But his opponent laughs at his declaration... and reveals that he is a she! So... this is a woman... NOT a man! His mind ran back to the old prophecy he knew... and he wondered if this was some loophole he had not expected... some cursed Elf Trick! And here... this very opponent, rather than being shaken by his reiteration of these words about his invincibility and his greatness... had drawn confidence even from those very words which were meant to inspire fear!

Perhaps he had a vague feeling that something bad was about to happen...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

And his words echoed the prophecy. He wouldn't have known that no man man would/could kill him from a lucky guess. He obviously knew.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Valandil

But his opponent laughs at his declaration... and reveals that he is a she! So... this is a woman... NOT a man! His mind ran back to the old prophecy he knew... and he wondered if this was some loophole he had not expected... some cursed Elf Trick! And here... this very opponent, rather than being shaken by his reiteration of these words about his invincibility and his greatness... had drawn confidence even from those very words which were meant to inspire fear!

Perhaps he had a vague feeling that something bad was about to happen...[/

That's the way I always interpreted it, only you worded it better, Valandil.

I'm guessing his last thought was something along the line of 'Uh-uh'.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I'm guessing his last thought was something along the line of 'Uh-uh'.

Or maybe: "Ouch! What's that sharp pain in my hamstring?!??"

[Attalus]

Followed by, "Uh, oh, I can't move, and that damned woman has got her sword..."

[Galin]

It's interesting that characters in the story interpreted the prophecy in such a way as to include both a halfling and a woman, and I think this is intended by the author (meaning Tolkien here) as the path for the Reader to take.

I think JRRT is playing on the spoken word man, keeping in mind the obvious, that the prophecy was given in speech not writing. This leads me to further speculate that Glorfindel, in his mind's eye perhaps, did not necessarily see who caused the fall of the Wraith-lord, but was rather given an utterance even he could not fully explain.

The bards of the Rohirrim seem to be echoing the 'trick' that Tolkien himself would be quite aware of, and tricky wording can go hand in hand with respect to fulfilling prophecy (compare Macbeth for example).

Granted, allowing Tolkien his fun here is a bit of an external nod, but it's maybe similar to accepting that Orthanc happens to be the same in form and meaning in a language that had not yet arisen in the World (Old English).

[Gordis]

Ha - an old thread from before I joined...

I agree that Glorfindel probably saw nothing at all, only uttered the famous oracular words, much like the prophetic dream-words of Boromir and Faramir and maybe also everything by Malbeth. Remember also the dreams of Lowdham in "Notion Club papers"? No images, only words.

The prophecy was likely made in Westron, as Glorfindel spoke to Earnur, and thus from the start contained this ambiguity of man (the male of the race) versus Man (any representative of the race).

There was a debate above in this thread whether the WK had known Glorfindel's words. Yes he did. In the draft for the Houses of Healing chapter (Home 8) it is clearly stated by Gandalf:

And when there came a cry from the fields I was near to the walls and looked out. And even as I did, the doom long foretold came to pass, though in a manner that had been hidden from me. Not by the hand of man was the Lord of the Nazgul doomed to fall, and in that doom placed his trust. But he was felled by a woman and with the aid of a halfling, and I heard the fading of his last cry borne away by the wind.'

[Willow Oran]

Glorfindel was not Eru, he was not even Maia and an ability to change the course of events or to make some things happen in distant future was way out of his league.

Tolkien says of Glorfindel after his re-embodiment:

To [the Maiar] he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced...

Now, I agree that he was probably not deliberately setting in motion WK's downfall, but it does seem like it was within his league. Remember, most of Gladalf's changing the course of events and effecting the future actions were relatively subtle and very often looked like circumstantial events, so an elf who is nearly equal to the Maiar (and probably equal to the istari given the limitations of their physical forms) would very probably be capable of the same.

As to a vision versus words... I think neither, by which I mean no specific or prolonged images and that the words would have been Glorfindel putting into his own words a very brief hint of an image and a sense of knowledge.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I just checked... that part of Glorfindel's prophecy is recorded as: "... and not by the hand of man will he fall."

It seems obvious to me that "man" in this context would normally mean humanity, male and female. Otherwise, the quote would read, "not by the hand of a man will he fall."

Or perhaps (1) Glorfindel's speech was as imprecise as Neil Armstrong's; (2) he actually did say, "a man" but whoever recorded what he said made a scribal error.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

It seems obvious to me that "man" in this context would normally mean humanity, male and female. Otherwise, the quote would read, "not by the hand of a man will he fall."

Interesting that he did not write Man though. Again I think Tolkien desired the ambiguity of the spoken word here, and obviously, if so he would yet be 'forced' to choose man or Man in a written context. As we know, Glorfindel did not speak English and possibly delivered the statement in Westron, which we know little about, but in any event there is an element of translation.

Just as an aside, generally speaking we might guess at a Westron word using banakil 'halfling, hobbit' (Appendix F), and considering also Banazîr 'Half-wise' and tarkil.

"tark" is a corrupted form of Quenya tarkil, which means literally tar- 'lord' + kil 'man', sp "a Lord of Men", i.e. a Numernorean' Carl Hostetter

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Galin

Glorfindel did not speak English

Lol no, but Tolkien certainly did!

[Gordis]

Does anyone know whether there were articles (a, the) in Westron?
I think not - see the only Adunaic text we have in Lowdham's Report in SD:413-440:

...Bârim an-Adûn yurahtam dâira sâibêth-mâ Êruvô "...[the] Lords of [the] West / broke / the Earth / with [the] assent / of Eru..."
...adûn izindi batân tâidô ayadda: îdô kâtha batîna lôkhî... "...west / [a] straight / road / once / went / now / all / roads / [are] crooked..."

You see the articles are not there, so there won't be a difference between "man" and "a man"

All this I have taken from the site: Adunaic

According to this site, in Adûnaic man was narû:

narû "man" (SD:434), Elvish stem NERE (WJ:393; though according to the Etymologies, the original stem was DER, with NÊR as a special Quenya form - see LR:354, 376).
naru "man, male" (434, fully inflected in 437, that also gives an alternative form narû)

See also that man and male was the same word, like in English.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Does anyone know whether there were articles (a, the) in Westron?

Sûza-t appears in The Peoples of Middle-earth, and seems to be translated 'the Shire' (noting italic 'the' in the book). This might point to a suffix for the definite article, though the example was not taken up into the published Appendices and is hardly much to go on in any event (not sure yet if there is anything that might bear on this in Parma Eldalamberon 17).

Generally speaking, Glorfindel had delivered his statement long before Frodo's day, and his prophecy could seem archaic in some way, compared to 'Modern Westron'. Anyway, Hammond and Scull on the matter (slightly edited for brevity here):

'The prophecy by Glorfindel (...) recalls one of those made to Macbeth in Shakespeare's play (...), that 'none of woman born' shall harm him. In both cases the wording is deceptive. Macbeth is killed by Macduff, who was 'from his mother's womb/ untimely ripped', while the Lord of the Nazgul will be destroyed by Eowyn, who is of humankind but not male, and by Merry who is male but, strictly speaking, a Hobbit and not a Man. In draft texts it was foretold first that the Witch-king would be overthrown 'by one young and gallant' (i.e. not by Gandalf), then that he would be slain not by 'men of war or wisdom' but 'by one who had slain no living thing' (...). The latter, at least, would be unlikely on a busy field of battle, and a less satisfying denouement than that Tolkien finally devised.'

Hammond And Scull The Lord of the Rings A Reader's Companion

They seem to be following the lead of the Rohirrim, again who include both the Shieldmaiden, a woman, and the Halfling or banakil (*half-man).

[Jon S.]

It was one small stab for [a] [wo]man, one giant slice for mankind.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Gordis

You see the articles are not there, so there won't be a difference between "man" and "a man"

All this I have taken from the site: Adunaic

According to this site, in Adûnaic man was narû:

See also that man and male was the same word, like in English.

I suppose that when Tolkien was rendering the text in English, he was able to retain the same ambiguity as in the original Westron.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

It was one small stab for [a] [wo]man, one giant slice for mankind.

Love it