Today's nations in LOTR

[FrodoFriend]

I can't see America as that bad. It's not exactly a rose-garden, but it's not entirely a garbage heap either. No, I think America is more like Numenor. It remains to be seen whether there will be a similar downfall.

[BeardofPants]

Instead of the One Ring, what power do we use now? Nukes? Who has all the Nukes? ... America, land of the Free...

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Cheney as Sauron? Let's see, now I have a picture in my head of Sauron with a pacemaker....

Now I am going to start lauging incontrollably every time I hear his name!! No, actually I was thinking of him holding an important job, but not quite being Sauron himself. Putting myself in danger of being flamed by people who might disagree--Sauron as corporate greed?

Yes, we use nukes. That is our One Ring.

Disclaimer: I am not being entirely serious here. I wouldn't want anyone to misinterpret my words!

[Prince Faramir]

i was harsh on that account. lest we forget that the imperialist nature of Great Britain....

Who invented Concentration camps?



*Hangs his head in shame*










Is there any place in Tolkien's worlds that has great, great wealth hand in hand with crippling poverty, racism, undemocratic democracy, and a thick as s**t Presidents?

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Prince Faramir
Is there any place in Tolkien's worlds that has great, great wealth hand in hand with crippling poverty, racism, undemocratic democracy, and a thick as s**t Presidents?

I like the Numenorean comparison posted earlier. If we never sign the Kyoto agreements and the sea levels rise....?

Can I come to Middl,er... New Zealand, too

[Vanimdil]

Hey, if the U.S. was as much like Mordor as some of you seem to think, all of us on here that are from the U.S. would be swearing at you in orcish. The reason this thread HASN'T gotten violent is that we are too polite to be like Mordor.
Seriously, I have friends in the military and it kind of bothers me to hear our country blasted. Sure we have problems but I think a lot of the sterotype of the "big, greedy, oppressive monster" is media propaganda. Anyway, just my two cents worth and I hope it doesn't offend anyone.

[Earniel]

I'm not offended and I had not intention of offending you, Vanimdil. Every country has it's problems. But those are not all media propaganda. My view of the U.S. maybe less than positive, but my own country hasn't got a that positive image in the other lands either.

[jerseydevil]

So this has become basically a "let's bash America" thread.

First there are several points

1) Europe brought slavery to America and WE were left to clean up it's mess.

2) Europeans were just as bad as America was toward the Indians. Oh and I have friends that live on Six Nation Indian Reserve in Canada - so I know that Canada doesn't treat Indians any better. I've been to the reserve a ton of times and my best friend lives there.

3) If America is Mordor - we should have just have taken over all of Europe while we saved your a$$es from Germany. (By the way you guys never did pay us back for the Marshall Plan - I think you guys can afford to now).

4) The world complains about the US getting involved - then they complain if we don't . Can SOMEONE please make up their minds???? We got mired in Vietnam because of FRANCE. We went to Somalia because of the UN. The UN would be nothing without the US.

5) Militarily the US is not taking over the world - culturally maybe. There is a solution for that - STOP BUYING OUR PRODUCTS. WE ARE NOT FORCING YOU TO GO SEE OUR MOVIES OR LISTEN TO OUR MUSIC OR BUY OUR CLOTHES. If we were militaristic - we could have had the world a long time ago.

6) The Thames was far more polluted and London was far more polluted than any river or city in America. Europe has a SERIOUS pollution problem too, as does the rest of the world. Why are developing nations left out of the Kyoto treaty and are able to just pollute?

7) Maybe all you guys should look in the mirror and look at your own history. Germany, Japan, England, France, Spain, Italy, Russia <- you have been the worst offenders against humanity.

I didn't really forget about the rest of the world, but Europe always tries treating America as it's wayward child. I think it's more of insecurity thing with Europe though on their critism of the US. They WERE world powers and they can't get over that they're not anymore.

The European countries are no larger than our states and the United States (minus Alaska and Hawaii) would run from Spain to the Ural Mountains in Russia. I've been to 40 of the 50 US states (driven from NJ to Washington through California and back. I've been to every state east of the Mississippi) - I wonder how many Europes can say they've seen as much. If an European never leaves their country - it's like an American never leaving their state.

Europe and Japan have had it's fair share of "corporate greed" (which in all actuality is no different than individual greed). Look at the bank scandals that has forced Japan to still be in recession. During the early nineties Japan was going to replace Amerca as the corporate giant and the Yen was going to be the currency that ruled the world. So much for that happening anytime soon.

After World War II - we destroyed all our military equipment - sunk our ships and everything. Two decades later YOU dragged us into another war and we had to spend all that money to remobilize. After that we realized you couldn't control yourselves. We were FORCED to take an active role in the world and prevent you guys from killing yourselves.

Finally America is GONDOR not Europe. We are the one's YOU CALL UP to bail you out of of problems - not the other way around. We have NATO planes defending the skies above me for the first time ever. The only reason they are there is because we are currently at war with a group of fanatics that took four of our planes and killed thousands of people. Our military would much rather be at home. If you have a problem with our military in your countries - tell your government that you want us out. But then don't come running to us to bail you out either - you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Prince Faramir
'gondor = america'

america is too impure and decadent

How is America too impure and decadent? You think Europe isn't? or the rest of the world? What about the Japanese eating $500 sushi dinners with flecks of gold in it (before the bank scandals destroyed their economy)? And look at Amsterdam. I've also been to England and I've had direct dealings with English people - I know they're no better than us.

I wonder how many people that are complaining about America and Americans - have seen our country for themselves?

Prince Faramir - Have you ever been to America?

[Earniel]

Dear, dear. I never wanted to turn this into a let's bash America thread. What is it with me that every body takes everything I say the bad way? I've got the feeling that I'm constantly misinterpreted. Please don't take it that personal JD. It's not worth it. It was an opinion. I NEVER said Europe was better. I know my history and I am not be proud of it. Blaming others for everything solves nothing. Just calm down, please. Flaming only gets you banned.

[jerseydevil]

It wasn't only directed at you. I've just heard a thousand times people trying to lay their problems on the US - even though we are only 225 years old. Slavery as a for instance.

I wasn't flaming or I didn't mean to flame - it's just that the US doesn't do 1% of the stuff that countries in our position have done in the past. We are the only Super Power - and maybe we do sometimes throw our weight around - but we have not done a fraction of the things that the European Nations have done when they were in our position. Look at the mess Europe caused in Africa.

[Earniel]

I understand your feelings, JD. But try to understand mine as well. Do you think I like being reminded time after time again what Europe did wrong? Over and over again, it's always the same, the world wars, slavery, colonialism, etc, etc... You're lucky your nation is a lot younger. You don't have to hear constantly accusations of things that happened often centuries ago. You can always point an accusing finger to Europe. But will you hold slavery against Europe for the next decennia? I could say, hey, we're not the ones that started it. I wasn't even born then. But what does it matter? It's DONE, over. We can't change what happened. We CAN'T make it better. Yes we messed up. We're not perfect. I know, I am not proud of it. But I can't change it, I'll have to live with it. Wouldn't you yourself rather be judged on what you are and what you can be than on what you were?

[jerseydevil]

Actually I feel the same way. I don't look at placing blame on people in the past. It was the time they lived in. I personally am glad we walked out of the South African talks last year - why should the US be saddled with making retribution payments for things we didn't cause?

I never blame Europe for things that happened in their past - I think Europe is great. But too many Europeans have a holier than thou attitude when it comes to the US and that's what I don't like.

No one is perfect in this world and no country is either. We can only learn from the past - we can't change it.

Also - countries work under the same principles as nature does - survival of the fittest. When the Normans invaded England - they won because they were superior. When Europeans colonized the Americas - they pushed the Indians out because they were superior. I'm not saying it's right - but there was definite difference in the way people looked at things back then.

The US is a microcasm of the world. My ancestors came over through Ellis Island from Ireland, Poland, Italy, Czechloslovai and Russia. So in a way - everything that Europe did in their history - my ancestors may have had a direct role in.

[Earniel]

I'm glad we cleared this up then.

[Cirdan]

That's the great part of America, we allow bashing and stand up rather well to it.

[BeardofPants]

I don't think any one place can be absconded from the atrocities that have occured in our past. Homo sapiens sapiens are a violent offspring (which is why we have survived so well), and this has carried over into recent history, and even today. We can't continually pass the buck, even New Zealand has done some horrible things to the indigenous peoples. All we can do, is learn from our mistakes, and hope to make the world a better place.

*steps off soapbox*

Of course, New Zealand kicks all your butts anyway! WE RULE.

[Cirdan]

New Zealanders have done horrible things to sheep as well

[jerseydevil]

Yeah right - I don't think many people on this board could have told you where New Zealand was before LOTR came out.

And actually - animals in general are violent. Monkeys and apes wage war against each other - and murder. Other animals will kill their own kind also - and not just in self defense or mating.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Yeah right - I don't think many people on this board could have told you where New Zealand was before LOTR came out.

And actually - animals in general are violent. Monkeys and apes wage war against each other - and murder. Other animals will kill their own kind also - and not just in self defense or mating.

No, that's not true. The only 'monkey' that has ever been observed killing their own kind through 'warmongering' has been an ape: the chimpanzee. They have also been known to rape.

True, regarding our location... people always muddle us up with Australians...

And yes, we have don't some atrocious things to sheep... *buries head in shame*

[Cirdan]

LOL, BOP! Monkeys do throw "unpleasantries" around, sometimes. Maybe a "monkey vs ape" Planet of" movie is in the offing.