Opinions: Fëanor, ritcheous or over-proud?

[Falagar]

It's a hero called Lingolas, in a computer game called Age of Wonders. It was one of the developers (who I can't remember the name of right now) who did the artwork (thogh they've started with some computer-made pictures in AoW 2, which IMO aren't as pretty as the old, painted ones).

[Linaewen]

I should probably start playing computer games, just so I can understand much of what goes on here. Some things, I think, may be related to games and because they are, I have no idea what they are about. (I think that D n D classes is one)

Today, I noticed that this song had the lyrics along the lines of 'Maybe I'm a little righteous and too proud', which I thought was ironic considering that this thread is discussing whether Feanor is the one or the other, while this singer is saying she is both.

[Falagar]

Enlighted to the point of being dazzled, I would say.

If I hadn't had so much light in my eyes, perhaps I would have understood what you wrote

The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwë might in some measure conceive. And it was told by the Vanyar who held vigil with the Valar that when the messengers declared to Manwë the answers of Fëanor to his heralds, Manwë wept and bowed his head.

I'm now rereading The Silm, and this passage sent shivers through my body...

[Linaewen]

I wish I was rereading it. But one doesn't usually reread a book one has just finished reading.

Yes.. that passage is sad and beautiful. Like the last line in 'Of the Rings of Power'

In the twilight of autumn it sailed out of Mithlond until the seas of the Bent World fell away beneath it, and the winds of the round sky troubled it no more, and borne upon the high airs above the mists of the world it passed into the Ancient West, and an end was come for the Eldar of story and of song.

Back on topic, why are you the 'Desperate defender of Feanor', Falagar (see, I remembered your name!) Why do you like him so much? Me, I dislike him heavily.

[Falagar]

Why I like him? Because of all of those passages quoted above. It's a sad story, an Elf who could have been such a great guy instead leads his people out on quest doomed to fail.
But I also like him because he's more "human": He isn't perfect (like some other guy ). What would you have done if someone slayed your father, who you loved more than anybody else in this world? And also stole your treasures, which you could only make once? Sit down and wait? It doesn't justify all of his actions, like the kinslaying, but it explains them.

Also, he follows his own will only. No-one, not even the mightiest being in Arda, could tell him what to do.
The only one he ever took counsel from was his wife, and that was only for a while.

[Linaewen]

Why I like him? Because of all of those passages quoted above. It's a sad story, an Elf who could have been such a great guy instead leads his people out on quest doomed to fail.

I disagree. Firstly, he wasn't a 'great guy' to begin with, he was always selfish and unfair, like when he didn't want anything to do with his brothers etc. Secondly, it's not like he didn't have a choice in leading his people on the quest. He somewhat forced his sons to take an oath, which some regretted doing later on. You make him sound like he was reluctant to go on the quest, which he wasn't.

But I also like him because he's more "human": He isn't perfect (like some other guy ). What would you have done if someone slayed your father, who you loved more than anybody else in this world? And also stole your treasures, which you could only make once? Sit down and wait? It doesn't justify all of his actions, like the kinslaying, but it explains them.

He may have been more 'human' but his flaws were quite extreme. His arrogance, self-centredness and paranoia, for example, are probably worse than many 'men'. Nothing explains the Kinslaying. That was horrific and unnecessary.

Also, he follows his own will only. No-one, not even the mightiest being in Arda, could tell him what to do.
The only one he ever took counsel from was his wife, and that was only for a while.

Another flaw, not caring about anyone else's wishes but his own, and perhaps his father's.

Sorry if any of my info is incorrect, this is what I can recall.

[Falagar]

I disagree. Firstly, he wasn't a 'great guy' to begin with, he was always selfish and unfair, like when he didn't want anything to do with his brothers etc. Secondly, it's not like he didn't have a choice in leading his people on the quest. He somewhat forced his sons to take an oath, which some regretted doing later on. You make him sound like he was reluctant to go on the quest, which he wasn't.

I did? That was not the intention. Anyway, my point is that he could have been a great guy...hadn't he turned out bad As far as I know, he never forced his sons to take the oath (nor have I heard Tolkien state so anywhere else), they did so of free will.

He may have been more 'human' but his flaws were quite extreme. His arrogance, self-centredness and paranoia, for example, are probably worse than many 'men'. Nothing explains the Kinslaying. That was horrific and unnecessary.

But he cannot take the whole blame. All the Noldor who helped him (except for Fingolfin and his host, who didn't know what was going on) could have refused to do as he wanted.

Another flaw, not caring about anyone else's wishes but his own, and perhaps his father's.

Another flaw, yes, but still a flaw to admire. He doesn't do as everyone tell him, he does what he himself deem wise, however disasterous or evil it may be.

[Linaewen]

I did? That was not the intention. Anyway, my point is that he could have been a great guy...hadn't he turned out bad As far as I know, he never forced his sons to take the oath (nor have I heard Tolkien state so anywhere else), they did so of free will.

Ok, just checking on the correct page, they did so of their own free will. But they couldn't very well not do it, could they? They were caught up in the moment, what with Feanor convincing everyone that it was the right thing to do. Uhhh.. let's just forget about the sons before I get told off for being incorrect and stupid.

But he cannot take the whole blame. All the Noldor who helped him (except for Fingolfin and his host, who didn't know what was going on) could have refused to do as he wanted.

Sorry. I didn't mean to say it was all his fault. But he lead the Noldor into the battle, saying that the Teleri renounced their friendship.

Another flaw, yes, but still a flaw to admire. He doesn't do as everyone tell him, he does what he himself deem wise, however disasterous or evil it may be.

Yes, he does what he deems wise, not caring to listen to others' advice.

Ah! So sorry anybody who also dislikes Feanor. I know my argument is weak and probably contains incorrect evidence.

[Falagar]

Ah! So sorry anybody who also dislikes Feanor. I know my argument is weak and probably contains incorrect evidence.

You don't need any evidence to tell that he was a bad guy, and that you don't like him. I like him even though he did a lot of bad deeds, and generally was arrogant and selfish.

[Linaewen]

So, do you like him because he's a bad guy then? A little bit of a role model, eh?

[Falagar]

So, do you like him because he's a bad guy then?

More of a tragic, half evil, unwise-but-inteligent-lore-master, cool, Morgoth-defying Elf than a bad guy, really.

A little bit of a role model, eh?

Yup. Guess what I'm going to name my firstborn son

[Linaewen]

Eh? Feanor's tragic? When?
Also, that's funny. Unwise but intelligent. I guess you could have that, but it's just weird, that combination.

Feanor? Oh dear. Nar, I'm calling my son Illuvatar.

[Falagar]

Eh? Feanor's tragic? When?

when:

The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwë might in some measure conceive. And it was told by the Vanyar who held vigil with the Valar that when the messengers declared to Manwë the answers of Fëanor to his heralds, Manwë wept and bowed his head.

and in a passage from Morgoth's Ring, which I can't quote because then I would have to fetch the book (<--lazy), saying that he would have been the noblest too...

[Linaewen]

Nar, that's more what he could have been that is tragic. I meant, something happening to him that was terribly tragic (apart from the death of his mother) Like, being caught up in fate or curse of the Noldor (is it curse? I'm also too lazy to check) like others of the Noldor.

You're just gonna take any excuse to post that passage over and over again, aren't you, Falagar?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

meant, something happening to him that was terribly tragic (apart from the death of his mother)

Also note that the the death of his mother was one of the biggest tragedies in Arda. Death did not exist in Aman, before, and yet Feanor has to live without his mother for the rest of his life, as the 'Statute of Miriel and Finwe' says.

Other tragic things that happened to him:

The death of Finwe, his father who he loved more then anything. Wow, he was only the first Elf to have two dead paretns, def. not tragic, esp. in Aman where death was supposed to be non-existent.

The theft of his Silmarils.

The death of Amras in Losgar, which was accidentally (No he didn't climb abroad and stab him) his fault.

It seems that fate played a large part in his tragic fall, as without his deeds, even the evil ones, the fate of Arda would've been severly changed, most probably for the worst. I have always thought he was an unfortunate pawn in Eru's game of the fate of Arda. Feanor is to me a tragic hero, though he makes several Faustian errors, I think it is more fate that lead to his fall.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Inderjit Sanghera
The death of Finwe, his father who he loved more then anything.

Thats the official lengendary line, but it is apparent from his behavior that his narsacistic self love was MUCH greater.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Falagar
Who might that be? Every enlighted person knows that Elves have leaf-shaped ears

There's a big discussion on another thread, Physical Description of Elves, in ME forum, where people have polarized their views on ears. I think elves have leaf shaped ears, many there do not.

Originally posted by Falagar
He isn't perfect (like some other guy ).

o.O Watch it.

Originally posted by Linaewen
Nothing explains the Kinslaying. That was horrific and unnecessary.

I agree!!!!!!!!! How could this be justified? "Yo, Teleri, give me the ships you love so dearly, or we're not friends anymore and I'll kill you." Even before that, he put a sword to his own brother (half-brother if you want to get technical on me) and threatened him. Sheesh!

[Attalus]

I have disliked Feanor (and his sons Celegorm and Curufin) ever since the first time I read the Sil. Able, certainly. Necessary to the story? Well, look at the title of the book. I have to laugh, though, thinking of him going to the parties with all three of them strapped to his forehead. Galadriel probably thought them too gaudy. Her taste is far too good to be seen wearing lightbulb-like gems.

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by Inderjit Sanghera
Also note that the the death of his mother was one of the biggest tragedies in Arda. Death did not exist in Aman, before, and yet Feanor has to live without his mother for the rest of his life, as the 'Statute of Miriel and Finwe' says.

Other tragic things that happened to him:

The death of Finwe, his father who he loved more then anything. Wow, he was only the first Elf to have two dead paretns, def. not tragic, esp. in Aman where death was supposed to be non-existent.

The theft of his Silmarils.

The death of Amras in Losgar, which was accidentally (No he didn't climb abroad and stab him) his fault.

It seems that fate played a large part in his tragic fall, as without his deeds, even the evil ones, the fate of Arda would've been severly changed, most probably for the worst. I have always thought he was an unfortunate pawn in Eru's game of the fate of Arda. Feanor is to me a tragic hero, though he makes several Faustian errors, I think it is more fate that lead to his fall.

I agree with all that you say. When I posted that message, I didn't know how exactly to express what I was thinking. Now, I have forgotten what my line of thought was. Sorry.

[Linaewen]

ELF GIRL clean out your pm inbox!!!

Whoops. *looks sheepish* The fullness of her PM box is partially due to me and my stupidity.