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Old 02-10-2003, 10:52 PM   #41
Sister Golden Hair
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Quote:
Originally posted by afro-elf
I do not have the books before me but I think that SGH brought but something I had forgotten. That the Finarfin ( perhaps) did not know that the Feanoreans had started the battle and just rushed in to stand by their kin.
In the Sil it says that when Fingolfin and Fingon came up, the battle was all ready underway, and them thinking that the Teleri were trying to hender the Noldor from their road, joined in before they knew what was happening.

None of the children of Finarfin that I know of participated in the kinslaying. UT does say that Galadriel bravely defended her mother's kin.
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"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

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Old 02-11-2003, 12:42 AM   #42
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I don't think that's the case at all. Tolkien says that the sons of Finarafin and Fingolfin were very close, almost as though they were all brothers. I think the children of Finarfin and Fingolfin were young and they had the high spirit of the Noldor, and were eager for the adventure and to see new realms. I don't think Finrod was ok with the slaying of his mothers kin, but I think he understood that Fingolfin and his sons became involved in the kinslaying before they were aware of what was going on.
From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor
Quote:
Thrice the people of Fëanor were driven back, and many were slain upon either side; but the vanguard of the Noldor were succoured by Fingon with the foremost of the host of Fingolfin, who coming up found a battle joined and their own kin falling, and rushed in before they knew rightly the cause of the quarrel; some thought indeed that the Teleri had sought to waylay the march of the Noldor at the bidding of the Valar.
From this quote, I think that it's only fair to assume that Fingon was actually involved in the battle and not necessarily his father Fingolfin nor his brothers.
The funny thing is that for the "exemplary" Finrod, chose to ignore his father, something that the first prince of the Ñoldor would never do.
From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor
Quote:
Then Fëanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?
Certainly not Finrod.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 02-11-2003, 09:14 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor

From this quote, I think that it's only fair to assume that Fingon was actually involved in the battle and not necessarily his father Fingolfin nor his brothers.
The funny thing is that for the "exemplary" Finrod, chose to ignore his father, something that the first prince of the Ñoldor would never do.
From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor

Certainly not Finrod.
Give me a break. Finrod had a stable home and two parents that he freely shared with his brothers and sister without all the jealousy. Not his fault if he wasn't a big daddy's boy. Feanor was a spoiled brat. Had it not been for his jealousy of Finwe's marriage to Indis and his half-brothers, he would not have stayed secluded from his family like the cry baby that he was, then the Silmarils wouldn't have been made and stolen and the exile wouldn't have happened, nor the Kinslaying, and everyone would have been happy together in Valinor and there would be no story. So there. Feanor could never have hoped to be the good guy that Finrod was.
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"Whither go you?" she said.

"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

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Old 02-11-2003, 10:14 AM   #44
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It's not my fault that the author explicitly states that Fëanor loved his father more than any other Children of Ilúvatar ever would.
Finrod father was making a statement by returning back to Valinor, but did Finrod had the apreciation for his father that Fëanor did? Nooperz. Finrod thought, what is the killing of a few Teleri, or the Doom of Mandos, I want to go regardless of my father wanting us to stay behind. It's not like I care that much what he thinks.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 02-11-2003, 10:27 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
It's not my fault that the author explicitly states that Fëanor loved his father more than any other Children of Ilúvatar ever would.
Finrod father was making a statement by returning back to Valinor, but did Finrod had the apreciation for his father that Fëanor did? Nooperz. Finrod thought, what is the killing of a few Teleri, or the Doom of Mandos, I want to go regardless of my father wanting us to stay behind. It's not like I care that much what he thinks.
Yep, Feanor loved his father more than any others did. Finwe had to be mommy and daddy to him, so he was tied to his apron strings. No wonder the poor kid was a mental case, besides, why does it matter whether Finrod loved Finarfin as much as Feanor loved Finwe? Feanor killed more people and caused more trouble and was actually the cause of all the greifs of the Noldor. Because Finrod didn't return to Valinor, you say he didn't love his father so much. If he had returned to Valinor with him, you would say he was a wuss like his Father. So, nomatter what he did, it wasn't right, but Feanor was such a great guy. PALEASE!
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"Whither go you?" she said.

"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

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Old 02-11-2003, 11:42 AM   #46
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Because Finrod didn't return to Valinor, you say he didn't love his father so much. If he had returned to Valinor with him, you would say he was a wuss like his Father. So, nomatter what he did, it wasn't right, but Fëanor was such a great guy. PALEASE!
For the record, I haven't said that Finrod was a wuss. You did. Remember the really bad thing about FF is the fact that he is in some way related to Thingol.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 02-11-2003, 11:45 AM   #47
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And so was Luthien Tinuviel and even more so. Are you going to hold that against her too?
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Old 02-11-2003, 11:47 AM   #48
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And so was Luthien Tinuviel and even more so. Are you going to hold that against her too?
I could but I make exceptions for pretty girls.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 02-11-2003, 11:54 AM   #49
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Quote:
No wonder the poor kid was a mental case, besides, why does it matter whether Finrod loved Finarfin as much as Feanor loved Finwe? Feanor killed more people and caused more trouble and was actually the cause of all the greifs of the Noldor. Because Finrod didn't return to Valinor, you say he didn't love his father so much. If he had returned to Valinor with him, you would say he was a wuss like his Father. So, nomatter what he did, it wasn't right, but Feanor was such a great guy. PALEASE!
You're just angry because Fëanor loved his father the most!
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Old 02-11-2003, 01:50 PM   #50
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You know what I think? Feanor loved the Silmarils the most.
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"Whither go you?" she said.

"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

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Old 02-11-2003, 01:57 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
For the record, I haven't said that Finrod was a wuss. You did. Remember the really bad thing about FF is the fact that he is in some way related to Thingol.
No you didn't say that Finrod was a wuss. You said that Finarfin crawled back to the cage of the Valar, implying that Finarfin was a coward. Now what would you say Finrod was if he had returned with his father? A loving son like dear Feanor, or a coward that crawled back to the Valar?

I disliked Thingol too, but I don't hold Finrod to blame for being related to him, anymore then Maedhros being related to that trouble maker dad of his.
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"Whither go you?" she said.

"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

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Old 02-11-2003, 02:41 PM   #52
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You know what I think? Feanor loved the Silmarils the most.
Not more than his father. As proven by my earlier quote.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 02-11-2003, 03:04 PM   #53
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You know what? We are so off topic. (Bad moderator. smack!) I just had to defend Finrod though. Now, back to Thingol.
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"Whither go you?" she said.

"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

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Old 02-13-2003, 02:10 AM   #54
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heh - this has veered way off topic!

I'm not really sure which search you are asking about.

From The Silmarillion:

Quote:
Thus Elwë's folk who sought him found him not, and Olwë took the kingship of the Teleri and departed, as is told hereafter. Elwë Singollo came never again across the sea to Valinor so long as he lived, and Melian returned not thither while their realm together lasted; but of her there came among both Elves and Men a strain of the Ainur who were with Ilúvatar before Eä. In after days he became a king renowned, and his people were all the Eldar of Beleriand; the Sindar they were named, the Grey-elves, the Elves of the Twilight and King Greymantle was he, Elu Thingol in the tongue of that land.
The quote above (in the first sentence) answers your question - it was the Teleri. At the point of the search, the Sindar had not split yet. The Nandor had stopped and went down the Anduin, so they would not have still been with Thingol/Olwë's Telerin host by the time that host reached Beleriand. Therefore, the elves looking for Thingol in this instance were a mix of A) those Teleri that remained with him and became known as Sindar, and B) those Teleri that remained with Olwë and were brought across the sea by Ulmo to Aman.

The Nandor may also be an answer you're looking for - they too searched for Thingol. Those of you saying Lenwë led the Nandor down the Anduin might be relying on the Encyclopedia of Arda too much. Check these quotes out, from The Silmarillion :
Quote:
Then one arose in the host of Olwë, which was ever the hindmost on the road; Lenwë he was called. He forsook the westward march, and led away a numerous people, southwards down the great river, and they passed out of the knowledge of their kin until long years were past. Those were the Nandor; and they became a people apart, unlike their kin, save that they loved water, and dwelt most beside falls and running streams. Greater knowledge they had of living things, tree and herb, bird and beast, than all other Elves. In after years Denethor, son of Lenwë, turned again west at last, and led a part of that people over the mountains into Beleriand ere the rising of the Moon.
Quote:
Now as has been told, one Lenwë of the host of Olwë forsook the march of the Eldar at that time when the Teleri were halted by the shores of the Great River upon the borders of the westlands of Middle-earth. Little is known of the wanderings of the Nandor, whom he led away down Anduin: some, it is said, dwelt age-long in the woods of the Vale of the Great River, some came at last to its mouths and there dwelt by the Sea, and yet others passing by Ered Nimrais, the White Mountains, came north again and entered the wilderness of Eriador between Ered Luin and the far Mountains of Mist. Now these were a woodland people and had no weapons of steel, and the coming of the fell beasts of the North filled them with great fear, as the Naugrim declared to King Thingol in Menegroth. Therefore Denethor, the son of Lenwë, hearing rumour of the might of Thingol and his majesty, and of the peace of his realm, gathered such host of his scattered people as he could, and led them over the mountains into Beleriand. There they were welcomed by Thingol, as kin long lost that return, and they dwelt in Ossiriand, the Land of Seven Rivers.
Note the bold text: Denethor, Lenwë's son, led a host of the Nandor (most likely a very considerable amount, since it was worth recording in this history of elves) to Beleriand to seek out King Thingol, whom they were kin and walked with in the early years of the journey westward.
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Old 02-16-2003, 07:20 AM   #55
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This is all I have to say about this debate:


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Old 02-16-2003, 09:24 AM   #56
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Originally posted by DraztiK
This is all I have to say about this debate:


http://www.ileet.net/images/arguing.jpg
Then what are you doing here?
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"Whither go you?" she said.

"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

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Old 02-16-2003, 03:47 PM   #57
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Old 02-17-2003, 11:01 AM   #58
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Originally posted by Maedhros
Which Elves searched for Elwe?
The dumb ones. If you think about it, he was not the best king. So, it would have not been a bad thing is he had remain lost.
Oh c’mon! the guy must have had some redeemable quality, after all, a lot of elves AND Melian did liked him
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Old 02-17-2003, 11:53 AM   #59
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Oh c’mon! the guy must have had some redeemable quality, after all, a lot of elves AND Melian did liked him
He was tall.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 02-17-2003, 01:43 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
He was tall.
Yep, too tall, so even that wasn't a good quality, just freaky.
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"Whither go you?" she said.

"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

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