The Blue Wizards - Page 3

Lefty Scaevola · 11-22-2011, 02:31 PM

"Istari" may include beings other than wizards. The term itself means messenger or emissary and note the text above saying that "the chiefs were five" indicating there were others, and different ranks. There may have been various classes of emissaries, not all of them Maiar incarnated into a wizard form. Glorfindal may have returned as one such and maybe there were other Amanyar sent to ME (although we have no text of them). Perhaps the Eagles of Manwe were cosnider "Istari". Prior to the first age Orome ofter rode through ME with a party of his Maiar and some enhanced hunting animals, hunting servants of Melkor, some of these may still be visiting ME.

Galin · 11-22-2011, 06:19 PM

I thought Istari basically meant 'Knowers, those who know' from ista- 'to know'.

I think Tolkien did refer to Gandalf as an angel or 'messenger' (or maybe the Istari in general) for example, but without checking at the moment I can't recall if it's ever specifically said Istari referred only to beings in the order of wizards, within the subcreated world.

And there is the quote from Unfinished Tales implying there were more than five, but again I think it is at least a bit questionable as to whether or not Tolkien held to this notion later -- given later references that fairly consistently refer to five, or references like the 'other two' implying five as well -- although as I say, it might not be easy to tell if when he refers to five he isn't just simplifying things for ease of reference.

I would at least need to look at the collected quotes again concerning this last point.

Another Istari · 11-26-2011, 03:44 AM

Galin wrote, "By virtue of the wording of all the later texts that only mention five, it might remain possible that Tolkien is, in each of them, only considering five out of some unknown number, but in my opinion one would have to gather up any and all mentions of the five wizards that post date the Istari essay, and see what they think."

I think that we can all agree, that the book "Unfinished Tales" was edited and printed well after The Lord of the Rings. Having said that, placing when it's source materials were written in relation to the rest of the works would be merely speculative at best, there is a date associated with it of 1954 though there are additions to it as late as 1967 Qualifying what it has to reveal about the author's thoughts in relation to when it was written is not a useful method, as the work was never finished during the life of the author. Perhaps so in the change of a characters name or something similar that had been obviously discarded, but I think not in the case of what "Unfinished Tales" had to say about the Istari. The fact that in the Lord of the Rings story only five are mentioned does not preclude the existance of others in the larger world and time line of the whole of Tolkien's creation.

Galin · 11-26-2011, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Istari

I think that we can all agree, that the book "Unfinished Tales" was edited and printed well after The Lord of the Rings.

Of course

Quote:

Having said that, placing when it's source materials were written in relation to the rest of the works would be merely speculative at best, there is a date associated with it of 1954 though there are additions to it as late as 1967 Qualifying what it has to reveal about the author's thoughts in relation to when it was written is not a useful method, as the work was never finished during the life of the author.

Well the chapter on the Istari deals with various texts written at various times of course, but there are no noted additions to the 1954 essay that I'm aware of, especially as late as 1967, so it's relatively early compared to other references, and even earlier than the publication of The Return of the King, for example. And Appendix B notes that it was said the order of wizards numbered five.

And I think it's reasonable enough to wonder about something within this specific text, not just generally because it's relatively early, but by comparing a specific statement within it to author-published or later statements that arguably concern the same issue.

Quote:

Perhaps so in the change of a characters name or something similar that had been obviously discarded, but I think not in the case of what "Unfinished Tales" had to say about the Istari. The fact that in the Lord of the Rings story only five are mentioned does not preclude the existance of others in the larger world and time line of the whole of Tolkien's creation.

Well I hadn't claimed that the published text does preclude the possibility, but in any case in my opinion The Lord of the Rings goes a bit beyond merely mentioning five wizards, given the wording in Appendix B. And while I do think author-published text carries more weight in general, I didn't even say that the later references to five necessarily preclude the existence of more than five -- but again, I would like to see all the later references to five, or that imply five, posted here, and from that one can arguably better judge whether or not one thinks Tolkien retained this notion.

My point began in reaction to your...

Quote:

I'd like to clear up another point, there were five named Istari in the books. Unfinished Tales said,"of this order;the number is unknown, but of those that came to the north of Middle -earth, where there was most hope, the chiefs were five." So by reason one can plainly see that there had to more Istari who were not mentioned in the other works...

... and thus while one can plainly see that this is cleared up based on this statement alone, I yet disagree that this idea is necessarily a given, considering that I think that post seemed a bit too certain, in my opinion.

Another Istari · 11-28-2011, 03:39 AM

Well then my advice to you Gallin would be to read or reread,which ever maybe the case, Unfinished Tales by JRR Tolkien, specifically the chapter titled "The Istari". There in you will find both the dates I mentioned and perhaps a bit of the certainty that moved you to action...

Galin · 11-28-2011, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another Istari

Well then my advice to you Gallin would be to read or reread,which ever maybe the case, Unfinished Tales by JRR Tolkien, specifically the chapter titled "The Istari". There in you will find both the dates I mentioned and perhaps a bit of the certainty that moved you to action...

I've read the chapter and can't find any reference to any date other that 1954 for the essay in which this statement (referring to the five being chiefs and the number of the order being unknown) appears. Nor do Hammond and Scull mention any other date in their incredible Tolkien companion regarding this text.

Why don't you simply post the reference you're referring to, if I've missed it?

In the introduction CJRT gives no reason to discount his conclusion of 1954 for this essay, and notes: 'For the other citations in this section I have given in the text itself such indications of date as can be provided.' And that refers to other texts. And he does note, where he can, dating for other texts, like where he refers to some notes that 'probably date from 1972' for example.

And there is something noted as written in 1967, for instance -- the note beginning 'It is very unclear what was meant by 'in the South' -- but it was not noted as being added to the 1954 text in any case, and is just another separate note dated 1967.

I have a feeling you might be conflating all these variant texts as simply later parts of the specific Istari essay that opens this chapter -- but if that's what you're doing, this is not so (and if that's what you meant, one would guess you might have posted that there are additions to it as late as 1972 rather than as late as 1967).

Another Istari · 11-29-2011, 04:51 AM

If you have read the chapter I mentioned and do not understand why it is that I believe that there were more then five istari, then nothing I can say further will convince you of it...

Galin · 11-29-2011, 10:15 AM

Well I'll note what I've found in the chapter and elsewhere. Tolkien wrote an essay about the Istari in 1954 -- wherein he stated that the number of the order of the wizards was unknown -- and made no further alterations or additions to it in 1967, or at any other later time. In 1955 however, in Appendix B he published: 'The two highest of this order (of whom it is said there were five) were called by the Eldar...' Later references include:

'*The cats of Queen Beruthiel and the names and adventures of the other 2 wizards (5 minus Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast) are all that I recollect.' author's footnote to draft letter 180, 1956

'... the Beornings, and the missing two wizards (out of five).' draft letter 187, 1956

'Allegory of the sort 'five wizards = five senses' is wholly foreign to my way of thinking. There were five wizards and that is just a unique part of history.' letter 203, 1957

'... I really do not know anything clearly about the other two -- since they do not concern the history of the N. W.' letter 211, 1958

Notes on the Choosing of the Istari, dated after the completion of The Lord of the Rings -- CJRT can find 'no evidence of their relation, in time of composition, to the essay on the Istari'. Here the original choice of the Valar is to send out 'three emissaries to Middle-earth' and in the end five are noted, as two are added. On the reverse of the page containing the choice of the Istari by the Valar is a note concerning Gandalf, followed by 16 lines of a poem, which includes:

'Wilt thou learn the lore that was long secret
of the Five that came from a far country?
One only returned. Others never again
under Men's Domninion Middle-earth shall seek
until Dagor Dagorath and the Doom cometh.'

Rough Notes, Unfinished Tales, probably 1972

'Of the other two nothing is said in published work save the reference to the Five Wizards in the altercation between Gandalf and Saruman. Now these Maiar were sent by the Valar at a crucial moment in the history of Middle-earth...'

More late rough notes, Last Writings, The Peoples of Middle-Earth

'The other two are only known to (have) exist(ed) [sic] by Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, and Saruman in his wrath mentioning five was letting out a piece of private information.'

Another note: 'The 'other two' came much earlier...'

I don't pretend that this list is complete, but I certainly do not intend to leave out any later mention that the number of the order was unknown, or that implies more than five wizards were chosen or sent, or anything that arguably supports what Tolkien wrote back in 1954. Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age is a relatively early work as well, but reveals that 'others of the Istari' went into the East and do not come into these tales.

As I noted earlier, it's not impossible that for ease of reference Tolkien kept referring to five without bothering to digress that there were really more, but given the evidence so far, I tend to lean toward thinking that the idea in the 1954 essay was abandoned or forgotten -- even leaning more towards abandoned actually, considering the dating.

I welcome any further citation (with date if known) that seems to refer to the concept that these five Istari were really only the chiefs of a larger order. And as I say, just going by the references I'm aware of so far, I still lean towards five myself.

Galin · 11-29-2011, 10:46 AM

By the way I'm also aware of the opinion that the word 'order' -- in the citation under question -- might refer back to 'their own high order' (referring to the Valar), mentioned earlier, rather than the Order of Wizards.

I don't agree, partly as the word Order (again in the citation under question) is capitalized, as is both 'Order of Wizards' earlier, and later again where Saruman is said to be regarded by well-nigh all, as the head of the Order.

Also the reference seems to say that more than five beings came to Middle-earth in any case -- so if the number of the order of the Valar is unknown, to my mind the number of those that came to Middle-earth is unknown as well (in any case), because all we are then told is that of those who came to the North of Middle-earth, the chiefs were five -- still arguably implying an unknown number among which there can be chiefs.

11-22-2011, 02:31 PM	#41
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	"Istari" may include beings other than wizards. The term itself means messenger or emissary and note the text above saying that "the chiefs were five" indicating there were others, and different ranks. There may have been various classes of emissaries, not all of them Maiar incarnated into a wizard form. Glorfindal may have returned as one such and maybe there were other Amanyar sent to ME (although we have no text of them). Perhaps the Eagles of Manwe were cosnider "Istari". Prior to the first age Orome ofter rode through ME with a party of his Maiar and some enhanced hunting animals, hunting servants of Melkor, some of these may still be visiting ME. __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 02-24-2014 at 05:23 PM.

11-22-2011, 06:19 PM	#42
Galin Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 222	I thought Istari basically meant 'Knowers, those who know' from ista- 'to know'. I think Tolkien did refer to Gandalf as an angel or 'messenger' (or maybe the Istari in general) for example, but without checking at the moment I can't recall if it's ever specifically said Istari referred only to beings in the order of wizards, within the subcreated world. And there is the quote from Unfinished Tales implying there were more than five, but again I think it is at least a bit questionable as to whether or not Tolkien held to this notion later -- given later references that fairly consistently refer to five, or references like the 'other two' implying five as well -- although as I say, it might not be easy to tell if when he refers to five he isn't just simplifying things for ease of reference. I would at least need to look at the collected quotes again concerning this last point. Last edited by Galin : 11-22-2011 at 06:45 PM.

11-29-2011, 10:15 AM	#48
Galin Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 222	Well I'll note what I've found in the chapter and elsewhere. Tolkien wrote an essay about the Istari in 1954 -- wherein he stated that the number of the order of the wizards was unknown -- and made no further alterations or additions to it in 1967, or at any other later time. In 1955 however, in Appendix B he published: 'The two highest of this order (of whom it is said there were five) were called by the Eldar...' Later references include: 'The cats of Queen Beruthiel and the names and adventures of the other 2 wizards (5 minus Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast) are all that I recollect.' author's footnote to draft letter 180, 1956 '... the Beornings, and the missing two wizards (out of five).' draft letter 187, 1956 'Allegory of the sort 'five wizards = five senses' is wholly foreign to my way of thinking. There were five wizards and that is just a unique part of history.' letter 203, 1957 '... I really do not know anything clearly about the other two -- since they do not concern the history of the N. W.' letter 211, 1958 Notes on the Choosing of the Istari,* dated after the completion of The Lord of the Rings -- CJRT can find 'no evidence of their relation, in time of composition, to the essay on the Istari'. Here the original choice of the Valar is to send out 'three emissaries to Middle-earth' and in the end five are noted, as two are added. On the reverse of the page containing the choice of the Istari by the Valar is a note concerning Gandalf, followed by 16 lines of a poem, which includes: 'Wilt thou learn the lore that was long secret of the Five that came from a far country? One only returned. Others never again under Men's Domninion Middle-earth shall seek until Dagor Dagorath and the Doom cometh.' Rough Notes, Unfinished Tales, probably 1972 'Of the other two nothing is said in published work save the reference to the Five Wizards in the altercation between Gandalf and Saruman. Now these Maiar were sent by the Valar at a crucial moment in the history of Middle-earth...' More late rough notes, Last Writings, The Peoples of Middle-Earth 'The other two are only known to (have) exist(ed) [sic] by Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, and Saruman in his wrath mentioning five was letting out a piece of private information.' Another note: 'The 'other two' came much earlier...' I don't pretend that this list is complete, but I certainly do not intend to leave out any later mention that the number of the order was unknown, or that implies more than five wizards were chosen or sent, or anything that arguably supports what Tolkien wrote back in 1954. Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age is a relatively early work as well, but reveals that 'others of the Istari' went into the East and do not come into these tales. As I noted earlier, it's not impossible that for ease of reference Tolkien kept referring to five without bothering to digress that there were really more, but given the evidence so far, I tend to lean toward thinking that the idea in the 1954 essay was abandoned or forgotten -- even leaning more towards abandoned actually, considering the dating. I welcome any further citation (with date if known) that seems to refer to the concept that these five Istari were really only the chiefs of a larger order. And as I say, just going by the references I'm aware of so far, I still lean towards five myself. Last edited by Galin : 11-29-2011 at 11:30 PM.

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11-26-2011, 03:44 AM	#43
Another Istari Sapling Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: In the wilds of north east Alabama Posts: 5	Galin wrote, "By virtue of the wording of all the later texts that only mention five, it might remain possible that Tolkien is, in each of them, only considering five out of some unknown number, but in my opinion one would have to gather up any and all mentions of the five wizards that post date the Istari essay, and see what they think." I think that we can all agree, that the book "Unfinished Tales" was edited and printed well after The Lord of the Rings. Having said that, placing when it's source materials were written in relation to the rest of the works would be merely speculative at best, there is a date associated with it of 1954 though there are additions to it as late as 1967 Qualifying what it has to reveal about the author's thoughts in relation to when it was written is not a useful method, as the work was never finished during the life of the author. Perhaps so in the change of a characters name or something similar that had been obviously discarded, but I think not in the case of what "Unfinished Tales" had to say about the Istari. The fact that in the Lord of the Rings story only five are mentioned does not preclude the existance of others in the larger world and time line of the whole of Tolkien's creation.

11-28-2011, 03:39 AM	#45
Another Istari Sapling Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: In the wilds of north east Alabama Posts: 5	Well then my advice to you Gallin would be to read or reread,which ever maybe the case, Unfinished Tales by JRR Tolkien, specifically the chapter titled "The Istari". There in you will find both the dates I mentioned and perhaps a bit of the certainty that moved you to action...

11-29-2011, 04:51 AM	#47
Another Istari Sapling Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: In the wilds of north east Alabama Posts: 5	If you have read the chapter I mentioned and do not understand why it is that I believe that there were more then five istari, then nothing I can say further will convince you of it...

11-29-2011, 10:46 AM	#49
Galin Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 222	By the way I'm also aware of the opinion that the word 'order' -- in the citation under question -- might refer back to 'their own high order' (referring to the Valar), mentioned earlier, rather than the Order of Wizards. I don't agree, partly as the word Order (again in the citation under question) is capitalized, as is both 'Order of Wizards' earlier, and later again where Saruman is said to be regarded by well-nigh all, as the head of the Order. Also the reference seems to say that more than five beings came to Middle-earth in any case -- so if the number of the order of the Valar is unknown, to my mind the number of those that came to Middle-earth is unknown as well (in any case), because all we are then told is that of those who came to the North of Middle-earth, the chiefs were five -- still arguably implying an unknown number among which there can be chiefs.