heat;h care in america

[Hemel]

Mmmm, might not just be the Tories either

This report

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3791301.stm

references consultants' concerns that the current government may not be exactly blameless.

[The Gaffer]

There's more to this than meets the eye. Basically, the government is engaged in a subtle restructuring of health care. IMO, health systems the world over are run by and for the convenience of doctors and there's a real challenge in making them patient-centred rather than doctor-centred.

I agree that they are sailing pretty close to the wind with public-private partnerships, and I have huge issues with PFI, but there's a question of how you are going to bring about the restructuring otherwise.

It's good that doctors are so committed to the NHS and can be trusted to watch out for back-door privatisation. IMO, this is a lot better than some other PFI projects: the NHS buys its drugs from private companies, why not buy knee replacements from them too? Compare that with a PFI building project which means that our children will still be paying for the hospitals we had built but which will probably already have been demolished before they're paid off.

Also, there's good evidence that specialist centres result in better outcomes generally. If you do an operation all the time, then you are likely to be better at it. There's also good evidence that they're more cost-effective (for similar reasons).

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Well gaff, (snigger), I at least enjoy utterly free health care come what may. Be it cancer or a common cold, my status as an Australian citizen affords me free treatment, come what may. Oh yes I am an Irish National, but I have this beautiful thing called dual citizenship, so I lap the river of better health care, as opposed to my dear American compatriots, who do no better than Cuba. Bring on the usual responses....God I enjoy the battle...

Carry on Colombus..... Carry on.

[jerseydevil]

Obviously based on your comment above - you're whole purpose is just to argue, start flame wars and to not actually discuss anything. As for our health care - you have no idea about it - nor do you want to. I have no desire to discuss things.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Obviously based on your comment above - you're whole purpose is just to argue, start flame wars and to not actually discuss anything. As for our health care - you have no idea about it - nor do you want to. I have no desire to discuss things.

Gee, JD you really spotted me... I am one of those unfortunates who "argue" and not "discuss"; say I, baffled by your take on English prose...

Of course, one could be confused by the fact that they are the same thing... (chortle)

I (snigger) concede to your superoir use of words...


And, of course, if you have no desire, than shut up, and let others speak. If, of course, you have no 'desire'.

[jerseydevil]

Your attitude and arrogance is amazing Fenir.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I have no desire to discuss things.

Yeah. I am stunned by the power of your truth...(snigger)

We can say what we damn well please.

It becomes a 'flame war', when you fire up. We can say what we bloody want. If you take offence...well (sigh)

Welcome to our world...

Gee, I'm gonna cry that we don't agree. Oh perhaps.. OHHH PERHAPS... We dont have to agree with your view??

But your entitled to your view... And thats fine, but we can hardly be blamed for your short fuse, now, can we?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
Well gaff, (snigger), I at least enjoy utterly free health care come what may. Be it cancer or a common cold, my status as an Australian citizen affords me free treatment, come what may. Oh yes I am an Irish National, but I have this beautiful thing called dual citizenship, so I lap the river of better health care, as opposed to my dear American compatriots, who do no better than Cuba. Bring on the usual responses....God I enjoy the battle...

Carry on Colombus..... Carry on.

*shrug* I don't see what's the big deal or how it's superior.

Either way, we pay!

For the portion I underlined: Whether it's through taxes or through insurance premiums, we all pay for it... just a matter of how each country decides they'd rather address the problem - and which set of 'pros and cons' they're more comfortable with.

For the part I didn't underline: It doesn't really belong in a post.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Your attitude and arrogance is amazing Fenir.

OOOOOPPPSSSS.........LADS!!!

Thats comment has broken me......

Say I, "well" put in place by my dear friend, the Jersy devil...

Perhaps I'd better submit.....



Audaces fortuna juvat

[Sister Golden Hair]

If you are going to debate, DEBATE! The warnings have been issued repeatedly for flaming/baiting. I suggest everyone heed them. Anymore, and the thread will be closed and PMs issued to continued violators.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally posted by Valandil
*shrug* I don't see what's the big deal or how it's superior.

Either way, we pay!

For the portion I underlined: Whether it's through taxes or through insurance premiums, we all pay for it... just a matter of how each country decides they'd rather address the problem - and which set of 'pros and cons' they're more comfortable with.

For the part I didn't underline: It doesn't really belong in a post.

Again thats no worries Val.

All I want to hear is the phrase:

"American Health Care is not as good as the rest...",

Ohhhh.....damn....can they bring themselves to utter the words....

And I'll be much happier. America CANNOT be right at everything...


Gee... that broke the spleen....

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Sorry SGH...


Just caught the wroth.

Will concede to the greater...

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Valandil
Whether it's through taxes or through insurance premiums, we all pay for it... just a matter of how each country decides they'd rather address the problem - and which set of 'pros and cons' they're more comfortable with.

Spot on, and I wish more people would see it that way. This does imply, however, that a rational decision is made as to what kind of health system we have. In reality, this does not happen in many places, if any at all.

The bigger the pot, the more rational the decision, I reckon.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
Again thats no worries Val.

All I want to hear is the phrase:

"American Health Care is not as good as the rest...",

Ohhhh.....damn....can they bring themselves to utter the words....

And I'll be much happier. America CANNOT be right at everything...


Gee... that broke the spleen....

Well, in all seriousness, I understand that there are also problems, or 'cons' with a more 'socialized', government-instituted health care program. Don't you think that's true?

To me it's just a matter of 'choose your poison' (how appropriate!)... there will be positives and negatives both with each system, right? Or are you not aware of negatives associated with a government-instituted program and the positive aspects of ours?

So - not saying our's is perfect, I don't think it's inferior... it's just different.

[QueenAnnesLace]

I think myself that if someone wants to have personal battles with anyone it should be taken up in PM. And as for health care it all depends on where you work and what health care provider people have in order to get good heath care. In Europe and Aus. or anyother country I don't know what amount of taxes they take out of people in order to get free health care. So beyond that , until I do I can't really say too much on the matter. But free health care WOULD be great, but at what cost?

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally posted by Valandil
Well, in all seriousness, I understand that there are also problems, or 'cons' with a more 'socialized', government-instituted health care program. Don't you think that's true?

To me it's just a matter of 'choose your poison' (how appropriate!)... there will be positives and negatives both with each system, right? Or are you not aware of negatives associated with a government-instituted program and the positive aspects of ours?

So - not saying our's is perfect, I don't think it's inferior... it's just different.

One thing that you are yet to consider, is places like Ireland. We have FREE health care for ALL. Everyone. You go a brain Tumor, no worries. You got a poor Kidney. All FREE.
Then the rest, (social equality, unemployment, economy, and alike) can be considered. All we do, (by we, read Ireland, Australia, Nez Zealand, South Africa, and so on) Give up certian tax benifits to have utterly free health. We pay more tax to have these benifits.

Yay. Say I. Bloody Yay.

What are taxes for?


And thats on topic, yeah!

[Sister Golden Hair]

I say, there's nothing in this world that's free.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
One thing that you are yet to consider, is places like Ireland. We have FREE health care for ALL. Everyone. You go a brain Tumor, no worries. You got a poor Kidney. All FREE.
Then the rest, (social equality, unemployment, economy, and alike) can be considered. All we do, (by we, read Ireland, Australia, Nez Zealand, South Africa, and so on) Give up certian tax benifits to have utterly free health. We pay more tax to have these benifits.

Yay. Say I. Bloody Yay.

What are taxes for?


And thats on topic, yeah!

Any truth to the stories I hear about long waits to schedule a surgery, low level of care, etc? Just from your perspective?

[The Gaffer]

Here in the UK, we spend about 7% of GDP on health; the comparative figures are around 12%(edited to correct my mistake) for France and 16% for the US. That would imply to me that someone is getting very, very rich on your insurance payments.

Of course, we pay by taxation, but less than if it was by insurance fees. The other effect of that is that health care is politically accountable.

I would argue that a central, nationalised system is inherently more efficient and more responsive. By commissioning health services on a large scale, you can manage resources much more efficiently. Just ask any multinational corporation.

I can give you my perspective on the scare stories: if you have routine, elective surgery such as hip replacements, you might have to wait a year to get the operation. That's the way in which the UK NHS (can't comment on Ireland) falls down compared with other systems. It's because the system operates at capacity all the time: there are no spare resources.

However, if you have acute illness, the level of care is up there with the best in the world.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Here in the UK, we spend about 7% of GDP on health; the comparative figures are around 9% for France and 16% for the US. That would imply to me that someone is getting very, very rich on your insurance payments.

Of course, we pay by taxation, but less than if it was by insurance fees. The other effect of that is that health care is politically accountable.

That sounds good. Yes - insurance IS a lucrative racke... er, uh... BUSINESS here in the States.

How is the quality of health care in your system? Not the case for all (ie, BC - and other mooters I'm sure) but on this side of the pond, 'government workers' is sometimes a bit of an oxymoron.

(EDIT: I see that with your edit you already answered about the quality. Sounds very good. In the US we're sort of split on that philosophically. Some would like to see health care become government funded... others fear that this would be even LESS efficient than what we have today. Also - as I understand it, some of the rising costs of health care are simply because we (all - not just in America) can do SO MUCH MORE for people than we used to. My real fear is that in America, our system would be so huge, it would be hard to keep it as efficient as the model you have in the UK.)

(Further follow-up: is there any talk of a European health care system? If you can imagine - that's almost the scale we'd be talking about in the US.)