Morgoth Alive???????

[Percy Weasley]

Not to Eä, but to Middle Earth.

In Gandalf's "death" and "rebirth" (I use those terms very loosely) he returned in spiritual form to Aman, perhaps to Mandos, although that is unclear. He faced the Valar, who chose to send him back, rather the same way that the Valar reimbodied Glorfindel and sent him back to Middle Earth (although the circumstances surrounding Elves reimbodiment is far different).

Gandalf was never outside Eä.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
Not to Eä, but to Middle Earth.

In Gandalf's "death" and "rebirth" (I use those terms very loosely) he returned in spiritual form to Aman, perhaps to Mandos, although that is unclear. He faced the Valar, who chose to send him back, rather the same way that the Valar reimbodied Glorfindel and sent him back to Middle Earth (although the circumstances surrounding Elves reimbodiment is far different).

Gandalf was never outside Eä.

You mean he died, returned to Valinor, and went to ME again?

Could be. Naked - without body, then. But Tolkien never really said the Istari can't exit Ea. He may have came back to Ea, from the outside. (I'm in process of believing you, so please keep convincing me )

[Percy Weasley]

"Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Iluvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Iluvatar and decended into it. But this condition Iluvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs." The Silmarillion

Hope that helps.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
Hope that helps.

Actaully, I know this quote, and you mentioned it before.
First, Istari weren't reguler Ainur; reguler Ainur can't be killed. Melkor left Ea.

[Eladar]

No, Gandalf did not go back to Valinor. Gandalf passed out of time, this means he entered the void. It was an act of Eru that did this. The Valar's plan to use the Istari had failed, so Eru stepped in, gave Gandalf a power upgrade and created a new plan.

The information comes from Letter 156.

The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the cirsis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandlf.' Of couse he remined similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speks he commnds attention; the old Gandlf could not have delat so with Theoden, nor with Saruman. He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in imergency as an 'angel' - no more violently than the release of St. Peter from prison. He seldom does so, operating rather through others, but in one or two cases in the War (in Vol III) he does reveal a sudden power: he twice rescues Farmir. He alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of Nazgul to Minas Tirith, when the City has been overthrown and its Gates destroyed

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Eladar
No, Gandalf did not go back to Valinor. Gandalf passed out of time, this means he entered the void. It was an act of Eru that did this. The Valar's plan to use the Istari had failed, so Eru stepped in, gave Gandalf a power upgrade and created a new plan.

The information comes from Letter 153.

Oh. Thank you.

[Ainaromenel]

Perhaps Gandalf went to Mandos, atleast for a while. I believe that the letters were some of speculation about how things could be. I haven't read them so I don't exactly know. It doesn't make sense that Gandalf went to the void, since nothing hints at that, and as I will say, I think only Melkor went to the void before the End. I will have to read the letters though, I admit. Certainly Saurman did not "die", as in his spirit completely vanished from existance. Even when the Elves are slain, they go to Mandos and wait till the End. Only Men have a completely unknown destination. I'm pretty sure that only Mandos, maybe Manwe, and obviously Iluvatar know where man goes when they die. No one else knows. Ainu can not die. They do not disappear from Arda, such as men do (at least that's what I think. Maybe that's the Gift/Doom of men given to them by Iluvatar). That is, except for Melkor.

It says at the end of Quenta Simarillion:

"But Morgoth himself the Valar thrust through the Door of Night beyond the Walls of the World, into the Timeless Void; and a gaurd is set for ever in those walls, and Earendil keeps watch upon the ramparts of the sky."

That describes the fate of Melkor. In the end he WAS counted as a Valar, though maybe only by Iluvatar himself. I don't know. I interpret this to mean that Melkor left Arda, some how. I don't know how, since none are supposed to be able to leave, but maybe Iluvatar made an exception. I know that's sketchy, but I'll continue. I assume that the "Timeless Void" refers to outside Arda. In the begining, after Iluvatar stopped the music, he took the Ainur to the void. Then he said "Behold your music!", and they saw the vision of Arda, and saw all the way up until I believe the end of the Third Age (hence the telling of the Lord of the Rings). Then Iluvatar hid it from their sight, and they precieved Darkness for the first time, outside of thought. That's when I believe the vision ended, and I think that darkness was the vision of Morgoth in the void. I know Earendil helped the Valar with over throwing Angband, by slaying Ancalagon the Black, "the mightiest of the dragon-host", and the body of Ancalagon destroyed the towers of Thangorodrim, thus greatly helping the Valar over throw Morgoth. Maybe the Valar gave Earendil the task/reward of gaurding over the ramparts of the sky, whatever that is. And assuming all this is right, and Melkor is left in the Void, then I do not think that Arda has any fears of his return. In fact, I believe that either in the preface, Ainulindale, or Valaquenta, it says that after Sauron, there was no other form of evil in just one dark lord, but rather it spread through out. I maybe wrong on this though, and if someone can prove otherwise, I will recant my saying this.

One last thing is that Melkor was not always evil. He is not totally evil. There was a time, during the music in the beginning, that all the Ainur played as they were supposed to. So in the very VERY beginning, he was good. Also, the only other kind of bright spot is when the Ainur are looking at the vision of Arda, it says "But [Melkor] feigned, even to himself at first, that he desired to go thither and order all things for the good of the Children of Iluvatar, ..." Now he quickly turned his desires away from doing good at this point, but there was a short time where he feigned (To imitate so as to deceive) even himself. So he convinced even himself that he wanted to do good. I know, a very very small thing, but I thought I'd point that out. In the end he was a horrible terrible being that caused a bunch of REALLY bad things to happen and in the end suffered in his own personal Hell. I'd say I'm glad it's all fiction, but that isn't true, seeing how we have a great dark lord as an enemy ourselves...

[Eladar]

No problem Radagast.

Ainaromenel,

What I meant by the Void is the region where Eru resides. The Halls of Mandos are within time. Gandalf clearly states that he passed out of time. Therefore he had to pass out of Ea.

Besides, where is it ever stated that an Ainu ever went to the Halls of Mandos after it as weakened by being forcibley unhoused?

[Wayfarer]

Of course Morgoth was still alive. It's not possible to kill him. Period. The only one that coudl unmake morgoth would be the one that created him.

[Ainaromenel]

Eladar,

I know of no other Ainu that was "forcibly unhoused", so if that is the case, then there would be no other reference to what happens when they are forcably unhoused.

I see where you get that Gandalf left time:

"Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wondered far on roads that I will not tell."

Then he says:

"Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done."

From this, I would say that to return, after being "sent back", is when he retuns to Aman, with Frodo and the rest of them. It makes sense to me that he returns to Aman, to do whatever, until the End.

How he returns to the mountain top, I don't know. That's something for speculation. But it is clear to me that he was still in his spirit form, hence being naked, and hence Gwaihir saying he was like a feather, and that the sun shines through him. He didn't take shape again till perhaps he was in Gwaihir's claws, since he was afraid of falling. Maybe it happened later.

Now, saying that when he was out of time, and wondered far roads that I will not tell, it seems to me that the idea of roads in the Void doesn't make sense. If you mean he went to Iluvatar, then maybe there's roads in Iluvatar's halls. But certainly there are no roads in the void, since it's the void! It seems to me that the matter of wondering out of thought and time, it is perhaps a metaphor, or at least not literal. If the wondering out of thought and time part is to be taken literally, then the far roads must be also.

Finally, after arriving back on the mountain, he says

"There I lay staring upward, while the stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as a life-age of the earth."

So was Gandalf laying there for ages? Or did the days just seem REALLY long? If one day could seem like a life-age, could it also seem like he was out of time?

Thanks for making me think Eladar!

[Eladar]

I know of no other Ainu that was "forcibly unhoused"

How about Gothmog? Or the Balrog that Glorfindel killed?

It makes sense to me that he returns to Aman, to do whatever, until the End.

Yes, that makes sense to me too. But then again, perhaps Olorin was not meant to spend that much time in Aman. Perhaps after he helped Frodo and Bilbo make it to the Blessed Lands, Olorin was taken back out of the world.

Thanks for pointing out this aspect. I had never noticed the implication before.

But it is clear to me that he was still in his spirit form, hence being naked, and hence Gwaihir saying he was like a feather, and that the sun shines through him.

Yes, I thought that too, but in a letter, Tolkien stated otherwise.

From Letter 156

'Naked I was sent back- for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whome, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not discarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galadriel's power is not divine, and his healing in Lorien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment.

So was Gandalf laying there for ages? Or did the days just seem REALLY long? If one day could seem like a life-age, could it also seem like he was out of time?

I don't know how he could be outside of time and within Ea at the same time. I guess anything is possible with Eru, but I think it probably just seemed like ages.

Thanks for making me think Eladar!

No problem! I like this kind of stuff.


Wayfarer,

The same could be said of the very least of the spirits created by Eru.

[Turgon_Turambar]

"But Morgoth himself the Valar thrust through the Door of Night beyond the Walls of the World, into the Timeless Void; and a gaurd is set for ever in those walls, and Earendil keeps watch upon the ramparts of the sky."

But if Morgoth was indeed utterly destroyed and never been able to return why was there a guard set forever?????

I want somebody to draw a conclusion on this matter as there have been some very interesting points. In the Silmarillion it says they hewed his feet from under him and beat his iron crown into a collar and put him in that special chain (ang-something) and then thrust him into the void. But someone else said he was 'excecuted'? i dont think that is possible. I do believe though that because Morgoth poured so much of himself in Beleriand when it was destroyed and 'rent asunder' so was much of his spirit and it would take him untill the last battle to regenerate his power?????

[Blackheart]

He's alive. I saw him last week at the meeting. Sitting right next to Chthulu.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Turgon_Turambar
But someone else said he was 'excecuted'? i dont think that is possible. I do believe though that because Morgoth poured so much of himself in Beleriand when it was destroyed and 'rent asunder' so was much of his spirit and it would take him untill the last battle to regenerate his power?????

In HoME 10, Myths Transformed, Tolkien uses the word 'executed'. I think 'executed' means that they killed his physical body, which would be an effective execution since Morgoth had bounded most of his life force into it. He had also as you said poured out much of himself into the physical world, but in the process he had lost control over that part of his power: Not all of that power was destroyed with Beleriand, it was still there in the Orcs and in the physical matters of Arda, but it could not be regained, at least not until the breaking of the world.

[Lord Manafirogh]

read this, this should settle things.
"But Manwe out forth Morgoth and shut him beyond the World in the void that is without; and he cannot himself return again into the World, present and visible, while the lords of the west are still enthroned"
Page 310 Akallabeth- silmarillion.

[Wayfarer]

Morgoth was incarnate, which means that his powers were bound up in a physical body which could be destroyed, but that would simply rearrange, and not dissipate, his energies. None of the Ainur can be slain- they can only be forced to leave their current form and possibly not be able to create a new body.

This is, of course, true of all spirits, as Eladar has said. I'd like to point out, though, the difference between an Ainu and a Japa... er, one of the Ainur and one of the Eruhini. The children of Eru are /given/ bodies, they do not make them, and so for them death is not a lessening of the self but a transition- for the elves it is a period between one body and the next, while the wounds of the spirit are healed. Elves that have died and been reborn are in fact stronger than those that have only lived once.

For Men, on the other hand, death is a step out of the body, and out of the world. They go... Away. Out. Somewhere. Nobody knows where, except those that have gone on ahead.

As for the dwarves, or the other 'made' races of the world, their spirits are disposed of in various other ways. But it seems, at least for the dwarves, that the dictum holds likewise- their spirits are not lessened by death.

A Maia or Vala, on the other hand, must make a body for them selves out of whole cloth, so to speak. The must expend energy to create the flesh they plan to inhabit, or at least arrange the elements that will make it up in the form that they desire. And depending on the effort spent to make the form there is a degree of difficulty in casting it off. Many of the Ainur assumed shapes and guises to intereact with the children of Eru, but what Melkor did goes far farther. He bent his will and focused his power into a body that would allow him to walk in the world of men, not as a dischoate spirit but a corporeal entity. In doing so, he crossed the point of no return- the power he used in making that body was beyond retrieval, and so the death of that body was a loss to him.

[Lord Manafirogh]

Morgoth is alive in the form that his evil work still lives in middle-earth. His spirit still lives. he is bound to some parts of the world orcs ect. Hes spirit cannot be killed. but his body form is destroyed and he cannot make a new body for himself. therefor he cannot come back with out the aid of some1 like eru himself. Eru could grant him a new body but why would he do that?

[Radagast The Brown]

In Ut, in the chapter of the Istari, the second prophecy of Mandos is mentioned. I can't quote it, since I ave it in hebrew, but I'll try to translate: Manwe won't go down off the mountain (Taniqueti, I believe) before Dagor Dagorath, and the end, when Melkor will return.

[Turgon_Turambar]

has anyone got any information on the last battle? is there a website on it? i wanna known what happenz.

[Wayfarer]

I'll let you know when we get there, 'allright? ];-)