Israel, Gaza, and the Middle East Conflict

[Radagast The Brown]

originally posted by HOBBIT
The British gave it to them. All of Israel as it is now is theirs legally. I'm not sure if the territory they got through various wars with the surrounding Arab nations they still have or not - but that land too is theirs (if they still have any of it that is... they were attacked just a few days after becoming a nation, any land gained in that should be theirs).

Not exactly - The UN claimed that The land of Israel (which was then Jordan too) would be the land of too nation - the palastiniens and Israelis. The arabs didn't agreed, and they attacked Israel and conquered Jorden. Then, they tried to conquer all Israel, I think (can't remember), and didn't succeed. (Or perhaps succeeded just Gaza and West Benk). Anyway, in 1967 we conquered the lands back (and the Golan, and Sinai (sp).) (without a connection, the Sirya wants The Golan back. I'm against that)
Anyway, we gave the palasitinies Autonomy (can't rmemeber when). Now they want a country (I'm not agaisnt that), but they want Jerusalem (NO!!! They won't get it!) and all the conquered lands from '67. (I don't have a problem with some lands. But there are already some cities there... I think they can't everything...)

originally posted by Ruinel
What I'm posting is probably not the right thing to say and will likely upset or even insult some.

Before the terrorist attacks on 9/11, I felt a lot of sympathy for the Palestinian people. I thought they got a raw deal. I always wanted peace in the Middle East and thought that perhaps they would want it also, for their children. I used to take their side in arguments.

I was at home on that day, I had a doctor's appointment and was getting ready for it, I watched the events live. It was horrible. People were dying. People were jumping to their deaths. Then the news media showed a clip of the Palestinians jumping for joy, at the terrorist attacks against the US, celebrating the death of all those innocent people.

That was the last day that I ever had sympathy for them.

That's what my mom said. That you didn't know what terror is until the Two Towers disaster.

oritingally posted by Bombadillo
Just for the record, Radagast the Brown is one of the very coolest people on the moot.

Thank you, not offence taken.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sheeana
The issue is a little more complex than that. Palestine wasn't initially part of the invading Arab countries.

That is nittpicking. The palestinians didn't have a miliatary - it was done in their name though - with their support. Just like today - Arab countries support and funnel money to Hamas and other terrorist organisations. Most of the Middle East now have treaties with Israel - but under the table - they still support the elimination and destruction of Israel and the homicide bombings.

Anyway, I don't really want to get involved in this thread, but I do want to say that while there are extremists in power on both sides, there will never be peace. Don't you just want to bang their heads together sometimes? I really truly hoped that Bush had somehow managed to wave a magic wand, to implement this roadmap of his, and for a time, it looked like he had suceeded. I don't know - maybe it's still possible. I hope so.

I think it is still possible. Even as the bombings have been occuring - Israel has been taking action against it's settlements. I think it is VERY clear to everyone that Hamas will do anything to disrupt peace. Most Palestinians and Israelis want peace I feel - but a fanatical group is there to disrupt and destroy any possibility of that happening.

[HOBBIT]

thats what i meant.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
That's what my mom said. That you didn't know what terror is until the Two Towers disaster.

No, probably not first hand. But we watched all of it on the news, feeling very ineffective and unable to do anything. Our hopes were lifted when there were peace talks and dashed when another attack would come.

I don't feel terror. I feel anger and sadness. I feel anger at the terrorists. And I feel sadness for those that died, and those that lived on in loss. The sadness I feel is the same sadness I feel when I read about another terrorist attack anywhere in the world.

Unlike other's who post here, including JD, I had never visited the World Trade Center buildings. I didn't know anyone who died there on September 11, 2001.

[Radagast The Brown]

originally posted by JD
I think it is still possible. Even as the bombings have been occuring - Israel has been taking action against it's settlements.

Not quite right... The settlers just return after the soldiers destroy the carvans. And there are more many sttlements that weren't evacuated and that are not going to be evacuated. I do want most of the settlements to be evacuted, but not all of them. I can't understnad why someone would want to live there..

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Not quite right... The settlers just return after the soldiers destroy the carvans. And there are more many sttlements that weren't evacuated and that are not going to be evacuated. I do want most of the settlements to be evacuted, but not all of them. I can't understnad why someone would want to live there..

Well I know that not all of them are being dismantled - but it is more than what were a couple of weeks ago. I think most of them should go too. I view a lot of the settlers as just squatters and it is not their land.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well I know that not all of them are being dismantled - but it is more than what were a couple of weeks ago. I think most of them should go too. I view a lot of the settlers as just squatters and it is not their land.

Well, the settlers believe that this land is their land. (according to the bible - from the Preth to the sea - preth - a river in Iraq. Most of the settlers are religeous.) Actually, the settlements just interrupt the peace - and they don't worth that much.

[azalea]

It's ridiculous of them to want Jerusalem! It might be helpful if anyone happens to have a map they could post that details some of the disputed areas.
It reminds me a little of the American Civil War (I know it isn't the same, but this aspect reminds me of it) -- that the one side wants to make part of the other side's land into their own country, but is it better to just have them all be citizens of one country, or is it better to draw a line, make them separate countries, and have that contention along the border constantly (like it used to be in Germany, and is currently in North/ South Korea), and possibly not even then achieving peace? In the case of the ACW, the answer was pretty obvious, but in this case, the religious aspect is so devisive that maybe integration wouldn't work, unless they stuck with it and eventually it became no big deal.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by azalea
It's ridiculous of them to want Jerusalem! It might be helpful if anyone happens to have a map they could post that details some of the disputed areas.
It reminds me a little of the American Civil War (I know it isn't the same, but this aspect reminds me of it) -- that the one side wants to make part of the other side's land into their own country, but is it better to just have them all be citizens of one country, or is it better to draw a line, make them separate countries, and have that contention along the border constantly (like it used to be in Germany, and is currently in North/ South Korea), and possibly not even then achieving peace? In the case of the ACW, the answer was pretty obvious, but in this case, the religious aspect is so devisive that maybe integration wouldn't work, unless they stuck with it and eventually it became no big deal.

I found one map in my computer. I don't know how to get it to here.

[Grey_Wolf]

This vicious circle of hate and fundamentalism will never be broken. The hawks among the Israeli hate the Palestinians and the hawks among the Palestinians hate the Israeli and as long as the state of Israel exist the hostilities will continue for ever.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Grey_Wolf
This vicious circle of hate and fundamentalism will never be broken. The hawks among the Israeli hate the Palestinians and the hawks among the Palestinians hate the Israeli and as long as the state of Israel exist the hostilities will continue for ever.

So then what is your recommendation - disolve Israel because the palestinian homicide bombings will continue? If that's the case - why not just eliminate the Palestinians then? Israel would have lived in peace had the Arab countries not tried to eliminate them.

It's the Palestinians and other Arab countries which keep the hatred alive. How would you feel about Norway if norwegians kept coming over to Sweden and blowing up buses, restaurants, etc? I bet you wouldn't trust Norwegians very much. I also bet you would demand your government to take action against them to protect you. I know if canada and Mexico were doing this to the US - I would demand my government to take action against them. I think it is a lot to ask of Israel not to take action - while their citizens are purposely targeted and PUBLIC buses are blown up.

[Grey_Wolf]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
So then what is your recommendation - disolve Israel because the palestinian homicide bombings will continue? If that's the case - why not just eliminate the Palestinians then? Israel would have lived in peace had the Arab countries not tried to eliminate them.

It's the Palestinians and other Arab countries which keep the hatred alive. How would you feel about Norway if norwegians kept coming over to Sweden and blowing up buses, restaurants, etc? I bet you wouldn't trust Norwegians very much. I also bet you would demand your government to take action against them to protect you. I know if canada and Mexico were doing this to the US - I would demand my government to take action against them. I think it is a lot to ask of Israel not to take action - while their citizens are purposely targeted and PUBLIC buses are blown up.

You definitely got a point. But what I meant was that this conflict will go on forever. However many peaceplans the US come up with, the hardliners (on both sides) will never accept them. The Israeli hawks cannot lay down their arms because that would leave the country whide open to vicious attacks from their arab neighbours and the Palestinian hawks (that is Hamas, amongst others) cannot stop their bombings because it's not in their nature to give in to anyone and perhaps they have some inane need to blow things up.

[jerseydevil]

There are always fringe groups which are never happy. There were fringe groups after America won the revolution, there werre fringe groups after the Soviet Union disolved. It is up to the majority - the people who want PEACE in the Arab world to take a stand. To stand up for both sides and say enough is enough. They need to take control of the radical groups. That is the only thing that will bring peace. Even after ALL the attempts by Hamas - the Palestinians and Israelis are still meeting. I have faith that with HARD work and perseverence that peace can come to the region. If it doesn't - then innocent people will continue to die on both sides. If it doesn't - then peace in the west will be at stake too.

[Grey_Wolf]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
There are always fringe groups which are never happy. There were fringe groups after America won the revolution, there werre fringe groups after the Soviet Union disolved. It is up to the majority - the people who want PEACE in the Arab world to take a stand. To stand up for both sides and say enough is enough. They need to take control of the radical groups. That is the only thing that will bring peace. Even after ALL the attempts by Hamas - the Palestinians and Israelis are still meeting. I have faith that with HARD work and perseverence that peace can come to the region. If it doesn't - then innocent people will continue to die on both sides. If it doesn't - then peace in the west will be at stake too.

Do you really think that one can force the lunatic fringe groups to stop their inane acts of violence and start living like normal people.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Grey_Wolf
Do you really think that one can force the lunatic fringe groups to stop their inane acts of violence and start living like normal people.

I don't think one can FORCE them - but I think action can be taken against them. Just like action was taken against the fringe groups who tried to disrupt the start of the US and the rebuilding of Russia after the Soviet Union fell. The Palestinians themselves will have to take a hardline against Hamas and Israel will have to take a hardline against the settlers. If both groups took action against their own fringe groups - then it would build a little more trust that something was being done and that the moderate groups who want peace are serious.

[Sheeana]

I fear that wolf may be right. I had this idea that if you empowered the palestinian people by giving them land, it would destabilise the hamas (because the fact of the matter is that the vaccuum that the palestinian people are in has created these extremists), however, the last few days have shown me that neither side really wants peace, and probably won't be happy until the total extermination of the other is achieved. And even if this weren't so, but sides have breached the trust, so if it does happen, it's going to take a lot of work, and I don't think a simplistic approach is going to work, because in order for anything to happen, both sides have to co-operate, and I don't see that happening. I really don't know what the solution is.

[HOBBIT]

the last few days have shown me that neither side really wants peace, and probably won't be happy until the total extermination of the other is achieved.

You think that the Israelis want the total extermination of the Palestinians? I don't think so. ...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sheeana
I fear that wolf may be right. I had this idea that if you empowered the palestinian people by giving them land, it would destabilise the hamas (because the fact of the matter is that the vaccuum that the palestinian people are in has created these extremists), however, the last few days have shown me that neither side really wants peace, and probably won't be happy until the total extermination of the other is achieved.

I agree with Hobbit - how can you say that Israel wants the total or even a partial extermination of the Palestinians? They have lived side by side in peace within Israel. There are Palestinians living peacefully in Israel.

Also - that vacuum that the Palestinians have found themselves in is because of the war against Israel which the Arab nations waged and then was followed up by the PLO - and has now been continued by Hamas. If none of that happened - the Palestinians would now have a very nice homeland and country. Instead the Arab world wants the total elimination of Israel.

And even if this weren't so, but sides have breached the trust, so if it does happen, it's going to take a lot of work, and I don't think a simplistic approach is going to work, because in order for anything to happen, both sides have to co-operate, and I don't see that happening.

I really hope you are not just realieing this. Of course it wasnt' going to be easy. I also don't think the peace plan that George Bush has put in front of them is a simplistic approach. It goes much further than having photo-ops like Clinton and Jimmy Carter did. George Bush is taking more of a hardline here than what past presidents have done. He has also stated - which is true - is that no matter what he or the US does - it is solely up to Israel and the Palestinians to bring peace to their lives.

I really don't know what the solution is.

I think being hardline and laying down the rules - having a new person to negotiate with besides Arafat is a good place to start. It's amazing how after only about a month people are calling it a failure when this conflict has been going on for decades. Do you really think that just by snappy fingers that ALL the problems would go away? It's going to take time and the problem is - no one is willing to give it time. After only a week - people were saying it failed.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

What exactly was the peace plana proposed by Bush?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
What exactly was the peace plana proposed by Bush?

A Performance-Based Road Map to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

The following is a performance-based and goal driven roadmap, with clear phases, timelines, target dates, and benchmarks aiming at progress through reciprocal steps by the two parties in the political, security, economic, humanitarian, and institution-building fields, under the auspices of the Quartet. The destination is a final and comprehensive settlement of the Israel-Palestinian conflict by 2005, as presented in President Bush’s speech of 24 June, and welcomed by the EU, Russia, and the UN in the 16 July and 17 September Quartet Ministerial statements.

This has some info too...
Road To Peace?

Also - as I have stated - talks are still underway. Even during this time of violence - both sides seem to be working to try to bring peace about..

Source: Israeli-Palestinian talks possible
GAZA CITY (CNN) -- After a week of deadly assaults in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, Israeli and Palestinian Authority officials may resume high-level security meetings Saturday night or Sunday in an attempt to staunch the bloodshed, Palestinian sources told CNN.

The two sides planned to discuss the possibility of Palestinian Authority officials assuming responsibility for the security of Gaza and cracking down on militants, the sources said.

The officials are to include Palestinian security chief Mohammed Dahlan and Israeli Maj. Gen. Amos Gilad, a Palestinian official said. Dahlan helped organize the first Palestinian intifada, from 1987-1994. He later participated in peace talks at Wye River in 1999 and Camp David in 2000. Gilad is the coordinator for Israeli activities in the Palestinian territories.

I will continue to keep my hopes up until I see both parties walk away form the table.