Gollum Debate

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by Dreran the Green
Why do you hate the idea of the noble hero? I thought it was a good thing to be heroic enough to give your life fighting for a cause you beleive in. I mean, I understand your point about the antihero but that doesn't mean you should condemn righteousness. I would like to point out that if there were no heroes, there would be no antiheroes.

The Hero archetype is boring to me. the stereotype hero is the ideal of the conformist who wants to be the hero but cant. its a myth to make us feel better. but it makes me want to gag. pure heros dont exist except in fantasy or religions. i like the antihero not just because he is the opposite of the hero but because he strives to be the outsider. he strives to be unlike anyone. and antiheros are real.

[Dreran the Green]

Yes, but the Lord of the Rings was a FANTASY. The stuff in it doesn't have to be realistic, (even though I am a big enough fan that I beleive in it all) it's not s'posed to be realistic. That's why we like fantasies so much. They allow for an escape from all the non magical boring stuff that happens to us (AKA Algebra)

[Dreran the Green]

But I still believe that heroes exist outside of books and religion

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
as for justifying murder well spare me your morality. and remember i am talking about GOLLUM here. NOT smeagol. if you want to condem smeagol with your petty morals go ahead. but gollum is a different creature. and thats the one i admire.

Okay! Gollum!

Are you saying you would enjoy sitting on a rock for 500 years, feeling like butter scraped over hundreds of miles of bread, unable to die and end your misery, fanatically obbsesive about a single object, and haunted by the murder of a dear friend?

...If that is what you are saying, then I don't think I can help you. Maybe a psychiatrist can tho.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
ya i do think he is the purest character. to me purity is being as close to pure animal as possible.

Well I guess no one can really debate with you about Gollum being a pure character because your definition of "pure" is definitely different to what alot of people interpret it as.

[Dreran the Green]

I can debate about anything. Just give me some Marshmallow fluff and several hours to ramble

[Elfhelm]

There is a difference between an antagonist and an anti-hero, as far as the point of a character being included in a story, I mean. I'm inclined to call Gollum an antagonist. Actually, I'll go a step further to call the One Ring an antagonist and Gollum a mere puppet.

Let me touch on conformity, which I despise, also. Is it not true, PK, that becoming a mental slave is even worse than conformity? That, in fact, Smeagol practically ceased to exist in his mindless obedience to the powers-that-be?

In time I hope you will come to realize that the alternative to conformity isn't nihilism, it is self-creativeness. I know you'll argue that today, but think about it for a while. Nihilism is just a different flavor of conformity. The true non-conformist creates himself daily.

If Smeagol created himself anew outside of social convention and learned to be self-reliant, he would have been able to resist the One Ring, because the One Ring offers an easy path, obedience. Instead, Smeagol let the Ring repress his true self. It was never a complete repression, though, and we do hold on to hope for so long through the books. But we all know where it ends. As a being responsible for his actions, whether he accepts it or not, his karma comes back on him and he is doomed.

[Dreran the Green]

*drops jaw and stares in awe*

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
There is a difference between an antagonist and an anti-hero, as far as the point of a character being included in a story, I mean. I'm inclined to call Gollum an antagonist. Actually, I'll go a step further to call the One Ring an antagonist and Gollum a mere puppet.

Let me touch on conformity, which I despise, also. Is it not true, PK, that becoming a mental slave is even worse than conformity? That, in fact, Smeagol practically ceased to exist in his mindless obedience to the powers-that-be?

In time I hope you will come to realize that the alternative to conformity isn't nihilism, it is self-creativeness. I know you'll argue that today, but think about it for a while. Nihilism is just a different flavor of conformity. The true non-conformist creates himself daily.

If Smeagol created himself anew outside of social convention and learned to be self-reliant, he would have been able to resist the One Ring, because the One Ring offers an easy path, obedience. Instead, Smeagol let the Ring repress his true self. It was never a complete repression, though, and we do hold on to hope for so long through the books. But we all know where it ends. As a being responsible for his actions, whether he accepts it or not, his karma comes back on him and he is doomed.

*Raises fist in the air at Psycho Kitty* Yea, what he said!

Btw, nice post Elfhem, well said.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Firstly, concerning animals, I would like to point out that while I don't study animals very much, I do know enough to know that a number of species mate for life. What is this, if not loyalty or devotion?

Secondly:

he strives to be unlike anyone.

Gollum does not strive to be unlike anyone. He who is cast out of society for wrongs commited is greatly different from he who willingly leaves it.

Thirdly:

i really think thats what tolkien was trying to say by having gollum play the roll he did

If you truly think that, then frankly, you do not know much of Tolkien. Gollum was hardly the hero from his eyes, as can be easily seen from the Letters. As to "what Tolkien was trying to say", I think it was more like that anyone, even the truly pathetic, twisted creature known as Gollum, may have a role to play, as Gandalf said. Or else that even Gollum may be used by the Will of God (remember, Tolkien was a devout Christian) or Fate, to those who despise the idea of anything remotely Christian in LOTR. But really, those are almost the same thing.

Regarding Conformity:

Quite frankly, I don't give a damn either way. I think it is better to be oneself, regardless of whether that would be "conformist" or "non-conformist". But really, living solely by primal instinct seems to me to be not individualism, but giving up one's humanity.

And lastly, allow me to add my two cents to what Wayfarer said.

I myself am fascinated with the sadists of History. Perhaps I could use you and be a copy-cat? [edited]

What am I getting at? That those who exercise no form of restraint, and just live by primal instinct and urge can be absolute monsters. This is your idea of "pure"?

Sorry, GW, but I had to edit out the icky stuff. -- azalea

[durin's bane]

I think it was wrong of Gollum to steal the Ring. He murdered and stole, which I think is horrible. Besides, I disagree with what Psycho Kitty said in that other thread about with the Ring causing so war if it stayed with Deagol, because he's just a hobbit, who mostly keep to themselves. They don't get involved with wars and history (save for a few) so it wouldn't really matter if he kept it or not.

[Elfhelm]

For the record, what Gwaimir said is far more Tolkienesque of an answer than mine.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Tolkien threatened to go Balory? I really must read more biographies.

[Wayfarer]

*/claps Elfhelm on the back.


Be that as it may, I think at least part of what you said bears repeating:

In time I hope you will come to realize that the alternative to conformity isn't nihilism, it is self-creativeness. I know you'll argue that today, but think about it for a while. Nihilism is just a different flavor of conformity. The true non-conformist creates himself daily.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
... I don't give a damn either way....
I myself am fascinated with the sadists of History. Perhaps I could use you and be a copy-cat? [rest of quote edited]

Wayfarer!!!!!!!!!! Is this your doing!?!?!?!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I'm not the innocent sweetie you thought I was.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I'm not the innocent sweetie you thought I was.

It's ok, Gwaimir... you don't have to protect Wayfarer. He's about to get a beatin' he so richly deserves!!!

[Wayfarer]

Ooh.

Kinky, aren't we?

[Psycho Kitty]

Ok like everyone is talking to me…

dreran… well I don’t think I was sayin that it should be realistic. I was just sayin I like gollum the best because of what he is (and what he isn’t). is that ok now? Can I do that? And as for heroes I don’t think the PURE hero really exists outside of movies and fiction. All real life heroes have non hero aspects to them.

she elf… yes elf I would enjoy eternal isolation and the total corruption of my mind by an outside source so I don’t have to be TRAPPED IN THIS STUPID BRAIN FILLED WITH CHOICES AND MORALS AND THINK THE SAME FREAKING WAY I DO NOW!!!! <hitting head>. Give me pleasant zombiedom.

no the shrinks couldn’t help me either. They tried. <evil grin>


ragnarok… yes thank you my definition of pure is the purist.

elfhelmet … you cannot escape conformity without total destruction of all that makes us petty social creatures. This cant be done by force of will. This can only be done by drugs or surgery. If you have an object like the ring that can do this for you perfectly well then that’s what I want. Mindless you say. Yes. That’s the ticket. Give me mindlessness through corruption or any other way. Don’t care. Just give it to me. Dark ignorant bliss.

I don’t really think gollum is a nihilist. He exists at the level below where you can consciously accept the idea of nihilism. He just is. That’s the perfection im getting at. Or are you giving me a speech about not being self destructive and caring about nothing? If that’s the case then don’t bother. Im more a self anarchist more then anything else. If there is such a thing.

Smeagol NEVER would have been able to resist the ring. Are you kidding? The ring is far too powerful and he was just a petty little thing. My only point is that I would like to be in that situation where such a thing could come to me and make me the zombie I want to be. To be The Animal. And anyway I don’t believe in karma.

durins bane… yer wrong cause if the ring had stayed in that community then it would eventually have found its way to someone with enough power to get into some real trouble. And yes you would have had wars because of it. This is the ring of sauron! It corrupts everyone and causes all things to end badly. Just because they were simple people doesn’t mean it would be safe with them.

And finally, gwaimi… god. Youre worse then the first guy. Are all the guys on this board into this kinda sicko kinky stuff? I mean that’s pretty cool but Im kinda surprised. I figured you guys would all be a bunch of book worms not masochists. Or is it something about me that gets em goin? <evil grin>

ok on your points. Devotion is a word humans created. Animals just do their thing. If that means mating for life then that’s what they do. They don’t sit around debating about it and think they are being moral or something like we pathetic humans do.

Gollum is NOT like that JUST because he was cast out of his village or whatever. Gollum had no choice but to seek COMPLETE isolation from everyone. If he was just cast out then he coulda just wondered like some nomad still interacting with people but just homeless like some small twisted ranger. But he went for total isolation. The idea of even interacting with anyone was like overwhelmingly negative to him.

What I was trying to say is that I think its significant that tolkien had a hobbit and a wretched little imp of a creature be the ones to finally destroy the ring and not all the big hero-like characters in the book. I think hes trying to say something with that. You disagree? So then to you its just incidental how the ring is destroyed then? Well not to me. sorry. It’s a pretty big flipin deal.

Ok look people im not interested in being myself or a conformist or a nonconformist for that matter or anything at all. I just wanna be NOBODY. I want perfect escape. When I read the hobbit and the lord of the rings I identified with gollum. So why are all yall people trying to argue with me about what I freaking find attractive!!! If you don’t like it back the [edit] away! its real simple. Im not telling ya to not be noble or moral or thoughtful or whatever the [edit] you wanna be im just saying if I wanna suck the doubt and guilt and dispair and pity and politness and all that other shnit out of my brain then LET ME DO IT!! Or at least let me dream about it cause im stuck in this joke of a reality. Ok?

<deep breath>

and anyway im not always like this. Usually im pretty quiet. really!

[Wayfarer]

I was just sayin I like gollum the best because of what he is (and what he isn’t). is that ok now? Can I do that? And as for heroes I don’t think the PURE hero really exists outside of movies and fiction. All real life heroes have non hero aspects to them.

That would be ok. I like gollum for what he is. Anyone else like gollum? Raise your hands! *watches the hands raise*

You, on the other hand, seem to be obsessed with making him something he wasn't, and never could be. He is a creature of corruption, who has been forcefully stripped down until he was a bare shell of a stoor. Yet there's a tiny bit in the back of his mind that's still his own... and we get to see the interplay as he wrestles with and slowly succumbs to corruption.

yes elf I would enjoy eternal isolation and the total corruption of my mind by an outside source so I don’t have to be TRAPPED IN THIS STUPID BRAIN FILLED WITH CHOICES AND MORALS AND THINK THE SAME FREAKING WAY I DO NOW!!!! <hitting head>. Give me pleasant zombiedom.

Again, you show that you don't understand. Gollum's life was not at all pleasant, nor was it isolated and unaware. The layers of his mind had been stripped away and painfully exposed, and his life became more and more one of constant agony. There is even indication that he was aware of the source of his torment, he certainly displayed as much insight into the ring as anyone.

On the other hand, your desire to escape choices and morals and even, how pathetic, not to be forced to think is an incredible display of foolishness. There is no escape, not for you, not for gollum. The fact that you would wish such an escape is an indication that you are allready well on your way to gollum's state- and you don't seem to realize that it's only going to get worse.

my definition of pure is the purist.

You are ridiculous in your arbitrary redefinition of words to suit what you wish to think.

you cannot escape conformity without total destruction of all that makes us petty social creatures. This cant be done by force of will. This can only be done by drugs or surgery.

Again, you demonstrate a marked lack of understanding. Similarity is not conformance, and one may indeed have things in common with another without being called that. A conformist, by definition, is someone that makes a habitual effort to adopt the mannerisms of another individual or group. Of those on this forum, it is you, with your desire to be the same as gollum, that is the most conformist. The rest of us may be similar or different, but we are happily ourselves.

But he went for total isolation. The idea of even interacting with anyone was like overwhelmingly negative to him.

Have you read the hobbit? Have you read the LOTR? Gollum /wanted/ someone to talk to. The small part of his mind that was still his own enjoyed the riddle-games with Bilbo, and was overwhelmingly glad when Frodo treated him well.

gwaimir… god. Youre worse then the first guy. Are all the guys on this board into this kinda sicko kinky stuff? I mean that’s pretty cool but Im kinda surprised. I figured you guys would all be a bunch of book worms not masochists.

What Gwaimir and I demonstrated was sadism, not masochism. And both of us pulled our punches

What I was trying to say is that I think its significant that tolkien had a hobbit and a wretched little imp of a creature be the ones to finally destroy the ring and not all the big hero-like characters in the book. I think hes trying to say something with that.

A widely accepted hypothesis, wouldn't you say?

Ok look people im not interested in being myself or a conformist or a nonconformist for that matter or anything at all. I just wanna be NOBODY.

Not my place to tell you, really, but you already are. How do you like it?

When I read the hobbit and the lord of the rings I identified with gollum. So why are all yall people trying to argue with me about what I freaking find attractive!!!

Again, we all like gollum. It is only that you have a foolish misperception of gollum and are trying to make him out into some sort of ideal. He's not- but he's certainly a step up from you.