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Old 02-10-2003, 12:34 PM   #21
Maedhros
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Hmm, maybe because he murdered his kindred...
That would be an excelent point, if not for the fact that he didn't know it at that time.
From the Published Silmarillion:Of the Return of the Noldor
Quote:
Angrod son of Finarfin was the first of the Exiles to come to Menegroth, as messenger of his brother Finrod, and he spoke long with the King, telling him of the deeds of the Noldor in the north, and of their numbers, and of the ordering of their force; but being true, and wisehearted, and thinking all griefs now forgiven, he spoke no word concerning the kinslaying, nor of the manner of the exile of the Noldor and the oath of Fëanor.
I would choose pretty europeans girls instead.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 02-10-2003, 12:47 PM   #22
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He didn't have the courtesy of speaking with the first son of the first prince of the Ñoldor, so No.
Well, if the first son of the first prince of the Noldor was a murderer of family, I certainly would know what I'd do.

*notices how Maedhros posted that Thingol didn't know that then.*

Mmmm... I see. Bummer. Well, Maedhros was at that time no longer in charge of the Noldor, Fingolfin was and Thingol didn't even wanted to speak to him either....

... which I suppose really shows that Thingol had no manners. And that for a king. Shame on him.
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Old 02-10-2003, 12:58 PM   #23
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Mmmm... I see. Bummer. Well, Maedhros was at that time no longer in charge of the Noldor, Fingolfin was and Thingol didn't even wanted to speak to him either....
At that time, there was no one in charge of all the Ñoldor, we were ruled by factions and after the council of Hithlum, it was only that Fingolfin was made the High King of the Ñoldor. Which, in my estimation is only a ceremonial title.
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... which I suppose really shows that Thingol had no manners. And that for a king. Shame on him.
And the thinking ability of a goat.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 02-10-2003, 01:13 PM   #24
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Finrod vs Thingol
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Well, if the first son of the first prince of the Noldor was a murderer of family, I certainly would know what I'd do.
It is interesting now if you look at it. Finarfin was married to a Telerin maid, and his son were related to them and after the Kinslaying in Alqualondë, they still followed the mightiest of the Children of Ilúvatar to the Wastes of Araman. It was only after the Doom of Mandos that Finarfin returned to Valinorë, but Finrod and company remained.
So, even though the first son of the first prince of the Ñoldor was a murder of his family, they were even in good terms with him, why would Thingol be otherwise.
From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Return of the Noldor
Quote:
It is said indeed that Maedhros himself devised this plan, to lessen the chances of strife, and because he was very willing that the chief peril of assault should fall upon himself; and he remained for his part in friendship with the houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin
I think those of the house of Finarfin had the following thought. The mightiest of the Children of Ilúvatar and his hosts slayed a bunch of Teleri, but they were just Teleri destined to live in the shores forever without doing nothing really. At least they had a battle and they had to do something for a change. They die and go to the Halls of Mandos and they can be reborn again, so if you think about it, is no big deal.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
Last edited by Maedhros : 02-10-2003 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 02-10-2003, 04:50 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Hmm, maybe because he murdered his kindred...
Njet, this had nothing to do with the kinslaying. Thingol felt his lordship threatened by these mighty Elf Lords arriving out of the West. That's why he was acting the way he did.
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Originally posted by Maedhros
I would choose pretty europeans girls instead.
In plural?
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Old 02-10-2003, 04:55 PM   #26
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I would choose pretty europeans girls instead.
...or is it possesive
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Old 02-10-2003, 05:07 PM   #27
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Nevermind.
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Last edited by Artanis : 02-10-2003 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 02-10-2003, 05:31 PM   #28
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I would choose pretty europeans girls instead.
Men!
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Old 02-10-2003, 05:33 PM   #29
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And after having seen all those "I luuuve Orlando Bloooom"-threads everywhere, I say: Women
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Old 02-10-2003, 05:57 PM   #30
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Re: Finrod vs Thingol
Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
I think those of the house of Finarfin had the following thought. The mightiest of the Children of Ilúvatar and his hosts slayed a bunch of Teleri, but they were just Teleri destined to live in the shores forever without doing nothing really. At least they had a battle and they had to do something for a change. They die and go to the Halls of Mandos and they can be reborn again, so if you think about it, is no big deal.
I wonder if they thought at all? Fëanor used every trick in the book of demagog to hypnotize the Noldor. I think the were indeed, like Tolkien wrote, fleeing. From bondage, from ruin... On top of that fear, they had the terrible incentive to fulfil the oath of Fëanor or else his mighty clan would turn against anyone.
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Old 02-10-2003, 06:19 PM   #31
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Originally posted by Falagar
And after having seen all those "I luuuve Orlando Bloooom"-threads everywhere, I say: Women
At least most women are content with just ONE guy.

Secondly, I distance myself from any Orlando Bloooooomthreads as you so eloquently put it.
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Old 02-10-2003, 06:47 PM   #32
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I wonder if they thought at all? Fëanor used every trick in the book of demagog to hypnotize the Noldor. I think the were indeed, like Tolkien wrote, fleeing. From bondage, from ruin... On top of that fear, they had the terrible incentive to fulfil the oath of Fëanor or else his mighty clan would turn against anyone.
No one forced them to go, they could have done a Finarfin and crawl back to the cages of the Valar.
Quote:
In plural?
I thought in singular, but plural is not bad.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 02-10-2003, 07:10 PM   #33
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No one forced them to go, they could have done a Finarfin and crawl back to the cages of the Valar.
Everybody acts as if Finarfin was just some coward that turned back. He had every intention of following Fingolfin to Middle-earth until the Kinslaying. His wife was a Telerin, so it was very devistating I think for him to see his kin killing his wifes kin. UT says that he often sought peace among the Teleri. I don't think he was a coward. I think he was devistated and perhaps ashamed of his people.
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"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

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Old 02-10-2003, 07:43 PM   #34
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Everybody acts as if Finarfin was just some coward that turned back. He had every intention of following Fingolfin to Middle-earth until the Kinslaying. His wife was a Telerin, so it was very devistating I think for him to see his kin killing his wifes kin. UT says that he often sought peace among the Teleri. I don't think he was a coward. I think he was devistated and perhaps ashamed of his people.
The funny thing is that the Kinslaying ocurred in Alqualondë, and our friend Finarfin turned back after the Doom of Mandos in the Wastes of Araman which is north of that. (Is a long walk btw). So the question is: If the Kinslaying was so wrong, why didn't Finarfin turned back then, why did he have to wait for Mandos to appear? Isn't he his own elf?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 02-10-2003, 08:28 PM   #35
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From the Silmarillion. The Flight of the Noldor. Chapter 9.

Quote:
But in that hour Finarfin forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the House of Fëanor, because of his kinship with Olwë of Alqualondë; and many of his people went with him, retracing their steps in sorrow, until they beheld once more the far beam of the Mindon upon Túna still shining in the night, and so came at last to Valinor. There they received the pardon of the Valar, and Finarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm. But his sons were not with him, for they would not forsake the sons of Fingolfin; and all Fingolfin's folk went forward still, feeling the constraint of their kinship and the will of Fëanor, and fearing to face the doom of the Valar, since not all of them had been guiltless of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë
I think he all ready felt very bitter, but continued for his children, but when the Doom of Mandos was spoke, that was the last straw. If anyone was fearful, it was those that went forward. Tolkien says him self that they feared to return and face the Valar.
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"Whither go you?" she said.

"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

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Old 02-10-2003, 09:06 PM   #36
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So they kill his relatives and that's ok. The question is why wait?
Why didn't he retraced when his wife's relatives were being killed? He apparently doesn't see the killing of Teleri a bad thing, not as bad as to turn back from it.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 02-10-2003, 09:13 PM   #37
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The question is why wait?
Like I said, I think he continued for his children, but I think that once the Doom was spoken, it was more than he could bear on top of the kinslaying, and that's what made up his mind.
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"Whither go you?" she said.

"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

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Old 02-10-2003, 09:41 PM   #38
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But the question is then, why would a noble and Elf like Finrod would follow a quest after the slaying of his mother's relatives? And he was ok with that to the point that he had a relationship with the Kinslayers in friendly terms.
Do the Ñoldor see their teleri family part of the tree as lesser elves?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 02-10-2003, 09:54 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
But the question is then, why would a noble and Elf like Finrod would follow a quest after the slaying of his mother's relatives? And he was ok with that to the point that he had a relationship with the Kinslayers in friendly terms.
Do the Ñoldor see their teleri family part of the tree as lesser elves?
I don't think that's the case at all. Tolkien says that the sons of Finarafin and Fingolfin were very close, almost as though they were all brothers. I think the children of Finarfin and Fingolfin were young and they had the high spirit of the Noldor, and were eager for the adventure and to see new realms. I don't think Finrod was ok with the slaying of his mothers kin, but I think he understood that Fingolfin and his sons became involved in the kinslaying before they were aware of what was going on. I don't think the Noldor see the Teleri as lesser Elves, but different from the Noldor.
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"Whither go you?" she said.

"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

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Old 02-10-2003, 10:23 PM   #40
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I do not have the books before me but I think that SGH brought but something I had forgotten. That the Finarfin ( perhaps) did not know that the Feanoreans had started the battle and just rushed in to stand by their kin.
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Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means?

She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight.

'Dern Helm"

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