Of Turin Turambar

[Lalaith]

Good point, but I guess the dragon would have gone to another place and disturbed the people there, although there would have been not that much gold and jewellery.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Good point, but I guess the dragon would have gone to another place and disturbed the people there, although there would have been not that much gold and jewellery.

Nope. What brought Glaurung and the forces of Morgoth out was that Turin had convinced Orodreth to change Finrod's policy of secrecy and to defy the enemy more openly. Thus a bridge was built over the Narog leading to the doors of the underground fortress, and for a few years the armies of Nargothrond issued forth to free the lands from Orcs. However, when the enemy came to Tumhalad, Orodreth and Turin met them unwisely in open battle. Turin surrvived, but the Noldor were driven back and slaughtered. Then Glaurung sped to Nargothrond before the bridge could be cast down, and the city was sacked, and it's inhabbitants killed. Glaurung stayed in Nargothrond for nearly five years sitting upon his hoard, and thus effectively opened Taleth Dirnen to the enemy.

[Lalaith]

What can I say against you, Sister Golden Hair. Once more we don't share an opinion.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
What can I say against you, Sister Golden Hair. Once more we don't share an opinion.

Heehee! Well, isn't that what makes debating fun? But, what I posted is what happens in the Silmarillion and that is the events of that particular story.

[Insidious Rex]

*chuckling* I dub thee Lalaith the unphasable. Yer too much.

But getting back to the topic: Am I the only one that saw the long tortured story of Turin to be simply classic Shakespearian tragedy at its fullest? In fact theres a number of Shakespeare like tragedies in the book but this one has got to take the cake for the most gut wrenching. Its almost Hamlet like.

[Insidious Rex]

Actually its more Othello like now that I think about it.

[Lalaith]

I always thought that there are also many stories about the forbidden love between sister and brother but actually can't name a story by now.

[Lord Manafirogh]

I just read that chapter and it was great. Turin is my favourite men in Silmarillion. He is a great worrier but unlucky. I don’t thing anyone could easily kill him in one on one combat. Killing himself wasn’t a good idea but can u blame him? He slew beleg which I though was a great elf, sadly died like that. The chapter is full of great stuff.
Turin son of Hurin, bane of glaurung.
One thing, when the sword spoke was that just an like a thing in his head?

[Sister Golden Hair]

One thing, when the sword spoke was that just an like a thing in his head?

I don't think so. Eol had made that sword, and it was like it was setient or cursed. It had some very strange properties, and it had turned on everyone that had owned it, IIRC.

[Falagar]

or perhaps Turin had had one too many curses upon him?
You know, marrying your sister, living among Elves, seeing dragons, killing people is not what I call normal behaviour for a man in his age.

Now, on my age on the other hand...

[Cirdan]

I am Turin.

[Lalaith]

Turin is my favourite man in Silmarillion.

Thank you for that.

[Maedhros]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Finduilas had at one time been in love with Gwindor who became captured in the Nirnaeth, but later escaped. Beleg came upon Gwindor sleeping beneath a tree and gave him lembas. They journeyed together to find Turin who had been captured and tormented by Orcs. When they found him, and Beleg attempted to cut his fetters, Turin not realizing it was Beleg and thinking Orcs had come to torment him again, grabbed Beleg's sword and killed him. When he saw what he had done, he was devistated. Gwindor Lead Turin back to Nargothrond where many no longer recognized Gwindor except for Finduilas, but when she saw Turin, she fell in love with him. Turin never returned her love, and then Gwindor was killed in the sack of Nargothrond. Before he died, he told Turin that it was up to him to rescue finduilas, or his doom would find him if he failed, which he did.

This is an almost unique moment in the legendarium. I think this is the first time that I can recall that an elf changes her mind. I don't want to be hard on Finduilas, but it seems like shallowness to me, she was in love with Gwindor, but after being a slave of Morgoth over the years, he was not as beautiful, as he once was. Is it shallowness or is it just me?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
This is an almost unique moment in the legendarium. I think this is the first time that I can recall that an elf changes her mind. I don't want to be hard on Finduilas, but it seems like shallowness to me, she was in love with Gwindor, but after being a slave of Morgoth over the years, he was not as beautiful, as he once was. Is it shallowness or is it just me?

I'll difinately agree with that. Gwindor was quite changed. No longer the noble fair lord that he had been. Turin was strong and young and he turned her head by that. I think Finduilas still loved Gwindor, but not as before. Turin was new and impressive, and being in high favor with the king helped.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
This is an almost unique moment in the legendarium. I think this is the first time that I can recall that an elf changes her mind.

Ehem - you seem to forget your own grandfather, Finwë.

I don't want to be hard on Finduilas, but it seems like shallowness to me, she was in love with Gwindor, but after being a slave of Morgoth over the years, he was not as beautiful, as he once was. Is it shallowness or is it just me?

It could be shallowness, but it could also be that Morgoth's curse on Húrin and his children worked on Finduilas as well. Part of the curse seem to be that Túrin eventually would cause grief and sorrow to all that became close to him.

[Maedhros]

Ehem - you seem to forget your own grandfather, Finwë.

At least with grandpa, his wife MÃ*riel Þerindë, had died. What's the excuse of Finduilas.
Finwë, if MÃ*riel had lived, would have never abandoned her.

It could be shallowness, but it could also be that Morgoth's curse on Húrin and his children worked on Finduilas as well. Part of the curse seem to be that Túrin eventually would cause grief and sorrow to all that became close to him.

Nooperz. Finduilas had nothing to do with the curse of Húrin. You cannot absolve her like that.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
At least with grandpa, his wife MÃ*riel Þerindë, had died. What's the excuse of Finduilas.
Finwë, if MÃ*riel had lived, would have never abandoned her.

Death is no excuse for Elves. Their marriages are supposed to last as long as the world exists. Finwe and Miriel were married, and yet Finwë married Indis as well. Finduilas was not married, not even betrothed.

Nooperz. Finduilas had nothing to do with the curse of Húrin. You cannot absolve her like that.

I don't absolve her, I'm just putting forth a theory. But she did not want to abandon Gwindor. Her heart turned against her will.

[Maedhros]

Death is no excuse for Elves. Their marriages are supposed to last as long as the world exists. Finwë and MÃ*riel were married, and yet Finwë married Indis as well. Finduilas was not married, not even betrothed.

It was a failing of love. Plain and simple.
From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quentas, Stature of Finwë and MÃ*riel

For the fëa of MÃ*riel may have departed by necessity, but it departed in the will not to return. Therein was her fault, for this will was not under compulsion irresistible; it was a failure in hope by the fëa, acceptance of the weariness and weakness of the body, as a thing beyond healing, and which therefore was not healed. But this resolve entailed not only abandoning her own life, but also the desertion of her spouse, and the marring of his. The justification which she urged is insufficient; for by the gift of a child however great, nor indeed by the gift of many children, the union of marriage is not ended, having further purpose. For one thing, Fëanáro will be deprived of the mother's part in his nurture. Moreover, if she would return she need bear no more, unless by the renewal of rebirth her weariness were healed.
'Thus Finwë was aggrieved and claimed justice. But when he called her and she did not return, in only a few years he fell into despair. Herein lay his fault, and failing in Hope. But also he founded his claim mainly upon his desire for children, considering his own self and his loss more than the griefs that had befallen his wife: that was a failing in full love.

Sad indeed.

[Artanis]

Haven't we discussed this before - "Laws and customs"

Now back to Túrin. What a man he would have been, had not the curse been upon him.

[Lalaith]

Now back to Túrin. What a man he would have been, had not the curse been upon him.

I'd say he would have been a great men. He would have done great things that men would have sung songs of, but probably he would still have been a little arrogant. But a warrior to admire.