Illuvatar - Page 2

Dwarven Sen · 03-19-2002, 08:34 AM

Hey this computer stopped me typing!!!

Anyway time is relative only to yourself but peolpe affect others so if you hang around in biology lessons eventually everyone will agree that it felt like it was a year long
There is the tree in wood theory of course to which I totlaly agree but I prefer the sound of one hand clapping physical impossibilties. There was a stargate sg1 episode where there time was slowed down by a black hole and everyone was working at relatively different times

By the way I see that have put alot of thought into this thank you for your time relatively speaking

Arathorn · 03-19-2002, 11:05 AM

I think it was the chicken. But the explanation is, I think, inappropriate for this board.

ged · 03-20-2002, 03:37 AM

Time... my favourite subject :-) I always found it funny that science has no big problems dealing with time (as a measure), but we humans always find (psychological) time paradoxons. I think the main problem is not the concept of time itself. I think the paradoxical behaviour is caused by the concept of "present", as contrast to "past" and "future".

In other words, I think the critical "human" (or "elvish" :-) mind-aspect of time is that our minds sense one precise point of time as "present time". We seem to have something like a "sense" for time, which does not seem to have an organic representation, but is an intrinsic (!) element of what we call "consiousness".

Eru is "out of time"... I think this means that Eru is not "bound" to time, does not sense one point of time as present, but all points of time as "present" (in the sense of "real", of "being there"). An analogy is our feeling that all locations (even if out of our sight) are existing.

An interesting aspect is that this positive interpretation "Eru stands out of time" can also be interpreted as a failure: "Eru has no sense for present time" - he can only experience change in an abstract sense. Consider looking at a mountain. In an abstract sense you can interpret the change of height as "change", but only by climbing it you can actually "feel" this change; this is a mapping into time where our "time-sense" can be applied.

So I wonder if the "creation of time" should rather be considered as "creation of a sense of present time". As I stated above, in my opinion this "sense of present time" (the fact we feel now as now :-) is an intrinsic feature of our consiousness, so we could also say that Eru created consiousness. He created beings that could sense a certain point of time as present time. Definitely, elves as well as humans got this gift. An interesting question is: how about the Valar? I think they were the first ones who got consciousness.

If you look at the very beginning of Tolkiens history, it is interesting to see that Eru invented a musical theme (which, by itself, is static - it does not change). He needed something/somebody who could transform the theme into actual music (which is dynamic). So, the Valar somehow allowed Eru to experience - directly or indirectly - present time.

It is also very interesting to ask if Eru itself can be a conscious being. If the ability (interpreted as gift, not doom) to feel one point of time as present time is intrinsic to consciousness, Eru would not have it. His "mind" worked on a completely different level then.

It is also interesting to look at the sequence "Valar-Elves-Humans" as a way to increase the "consciousness-level" more and more - in the sense that beings that feel the present time as more essential might have a more consious mind. The climax of this level, of course, is mortality. So, mortality appears as final representation of consiousness - the gift Eru made to humans. Finally, without a feeling for "present time", there would be no mortality. Nobody of us would call a stick "mortal" because it "starts" a a certain location and "ends" at another location at some geographical distance. If we could feel all points of time as "really existing", being mortal would be no difference to the fact we have a physical finite local extension (6 ft for example :-).

This interpretation takes some power away from Eru. This is not really a contradiction though. Tolkien himself writes that Valars, for example, could not "understand" the whole concept of elves and humans (which are in the third theme, while the Valar only know the first theme completely). So, elves and humans have something miraculous "more" than the Valar. Any maybe Eru created all of them because he lacked consciousness (in our sense). Mortal beings, like us, would then be a completion of Eru.

Of course that all applies to God as well as to Eru... *smile*

Ged

Dwarven Sen · 03-20-2002, 08:53 AM

Sorry Arathorn I'll not talk for long.

Well Ged (by the way have you read the earthsea quartet by any chance)I think that
1:-You put way too much thought into that but it was very interesting
2:-I think that Eru, being all powerful and all tuneful, was a creature of time. He could see everything and when i say everything i mean everything including every possibilty every consequence and every destiny. I think that he lived outside of time so he never aged and could live forever. All his offsprings including elves and men retained some of his power.
Time is everything and nothing so in the void there was nothing because everything was everywhere else and everywhen else. We have a (ultimately wrong) sense of time because we cannot escape it and we cannot see outside of it. We do not see the end or beginning of everything because we have been caught up inside it.
By the way I said men retained his immortality for one reason- we are talking about middle earth and supposedly a very long time ago and they still exist within our subconcious making them living things
I have to go now because the brain power has turned my head to jelly.

Arathorn · 03-20-2002, 09:49 AM

It's ok Dwarven Sen. I meant that I had an explanation but it's beyond PG13.

Dwarven Sen · 03-20-2002, 09:58 AM

Oh do go on. I wont say anything. I want to know what you have to say pppplllllllleeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaasssssssssssseeeeee !!!!!!!!!
no one else is listening, honest

Arathorn · 03-20-2002, 10:05 AM

I checked your profile and you should be old enough, Dwarven. I'll send you a pm.

Dwarven Sen · 03-20-2002, 10:16 AM

Yes I am old enough. I am doing my A levels you know. Iam doing Physics Chemistry Maths and Biology and will go to university in less than two years

Dwarven Sen · 03-20-2002, 10:23 AM

(After reading....)

Hehehehehehe....(etc)

I totally change my opinion

Hehehehehehe..................

bropous · 03-20-2002, 01:25 PM

dwarven Sen, if you are currently working on your A levels, then why in the heck do you write like a four-year-old? I noted your experimentation with puncutation; KEEP USING IT!!!

It's like reading bloody eecummings or joyce.......yecccchhhh!!!!

Elfmaster XK · 03-20-2002, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arathorn
It's ok Dwarven Sen. I meant that I had an explanation but it's beyond PG13.

Im intrigued to know this theory. Please tell me too! You can't tell Sen and not me!!

Also, Bropous don't know her writing, she's only just started using intelligible words!!

P.S. I think the chicken came first

Elfmaster XK · 03-20-2002, 02:09 PM

hEE HEE!
I agree with that theory, you've obviosly thought of it from a practical side.

My idea was that the first organisms that came out of the sea were not in eggs, so why should it be different for a chicken (egg)?
Your theory is better though!!!!!

Arathorn · 03-20-2002, 02:15 PM

'told you it was beyond PG13.

BTW, it only occured to me that Dwarven Sen is also a she.

Elfmaster XK · 03-20-2002, 02:29 PM

Yes, she is. I get confused too. I only just realisd Somwone else was a she when reading the song thread. Those songs are great! I'm goonna get Sen to have an avatar photo soon though. Then there will be no ambiguity. (Speeling?)

Dwarven Sen · 03-21-2002, 04:35 AM

Leave my punctuation alone. I do science Alevels not english(though I did get an A at GCSE) but I do science so I only write notes and they only have to be readable to me.

I AM A SHE AND I'M GETTING ANNOYED THAT PEOPLE CANT TELL

Finrod Felagund · 03-22-2002, 12:22 PM

Eru is very interestin in that only twice did he directly intervene in Arda.
1 To sanctify the dwarves and give them life
2 To change the world when the Numenoreans landed in Aman

He sent his messengers into Arda to do his work and they usually consulted him in most matters.

Dwarven Sen · 04-08-2002, 07:31 AM

Finrod, are you stalking Eru? He will only intervene when the offspring of his thought are flumoxed or naughty. Notice people, punctuation!!!!!!!!!

bropous · 04-08-2002, 10:44 AM

Hmmmm. Sometimes I forget some of the age groups with whom I commune through the Moot.

Iluvatar DID exist outside of time, independent of the construct of the chronological framework in which we all agree to exist. Time is not something we can currently sense in and of itself; we only can deduce its effect on things. In the same way, we cannot see the wind, but see trees swaying and know it is there; we see things age and know a force is acting upon them.

No, time itself is not the force, time is not the force of decay. Decay to existence in the time framework is basically what length is to a line, breadth to a plane, depth to an object. It is a function of how long an object exists in the time framework.

Zo. Eru/Iluvatar existed before the framework of time, existed during its own existence, and assumedly, would continue to exist after time ceased to be recognized as a theoretical construct.

Interesting that Tolkien would choose music as the framework for creation of an existence grounded in time. Music is closely regulated by time, and without the underlying chronological framework it becomes cacaphony. P'raps an existence in physical form not existing in the framework of time would also seem cacapohinc to our present level of development.

Andúril · 04-08-2002, 01:33 PM

Is it not possible that Iluvatar aheres as well to his own particular theoretical construct that is time? This time property would operate in a similar way to ours, but the two would be separate. Obviously Iluvatar's time would outlast our own, likewise it existed before our own (and simultaneuosly with our own)

Is it feasable to say that, in relation to Iluvatar's environment, he has a timeline, or a set sequence of events, which would be perceived as incoherent from our viewpoint?

Dwarven Sen · 04-09-2002, 03:38 AM

Isn't that just Fate or Destiny?

03-19-2002, 08:34 AM	#21
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	Hey this computer stopped me typing!!! Anyway time is relative only to yourself but peolpe affect others so if you hang around in biology lessons eventually everyone will agree that it felt like it was a year long There is the tree in wood theory of course to which I totlaly agree but I prefer the sound of one hand clapping physical impossibilties. There was a stargate sg1 episode where there time was slowed down by a black hole and everyone was working at relatively different times By the way I see that have put alot of thought into this thank you for your time relatively speaking __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

03-19-2002, 11:05 AM	#22
Arathorn Bard of Mangled Songs Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila Posts: 2,679	I think it was the chicken. But the explanation is, I think, inappropriate for this board. __________________ Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert *Accio, Ash Nazg!* Elennuru s?la lúmenn' omentielvo* (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures... Last edited by Arathorn : 03-19-2002 at 11:19 AM.

03-20-2002, 08:53 AM	#24
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	Sorry Arathorn I'll not talk for long. Well Ged (by the way have you read the earthsea quartet by any chance)I think that 1:-You put way too much thought into that but it was very interesting 2:-I think that Eru, being all powerful and all tuneful, was a creature of time. He could see everything and when i say everything i mean everything including every possibilty every consequence and every destiny. I think that he lived outside of time so he never aged and could live forever. All his offsprings including elves and men retained some of his power. Time is everything and nothing so in the void there was nothing because everything was everywhere else and everywhen else. We have a (ultimately wrong) sense of time because we cannot escape it and we cannot see outside of it. We do not see the end or beginning of everything because we have been caught up inside it. By the way I said men retained his immortality for one reason- we are talking about middle earth and supposedly a very long time ago and they still exist within our subconcious making them living things I have to go now because the brain power has turned my head to jelly. __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

03-20-2002, 09:49 AM	#25
Arathorn Bard of Mangled Songs Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila Posts: 2,679	It's ok Dwarven Sen. I meant that I had an explanation but it's beyond PG13. __________________ Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert *Accio, Ash Nazg!* Elennuru s?la lúmenn' omentielvo* (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures...

03-20-2002, 09:58 AM	#26
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	Oh do go on. I wont say anything. I want to know what you have to say pppplllllllleeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaasssssssssssseeeeee !!!!!!!!! no one else is listening, honest __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

03-20-2002, 03:37 AM	#23
ged Sapling Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 4	Time... my favourite subject :-) I always found it funny that science has no big problems dealing with time (as a measure), but we humans always find (psychological) time paradoxons. I think the main problem is not the concept of time itself. I think the paradoxical behaviour is caused by the concept of "present", as contrast to "past" and "future". In other words, I think the critical "human" (or "elvish" :-) mind-aspect of time is that our minds sense one precise point of time as "present time". We seem to have something like a "sense" for time, which does not seem to have an organic representation, but is an intrinsic (!) element of what we call "consiousness". Eru is "out of time"... I think this means that Eru is not "bound" to time, does not sense one point of time as present, but all points of time as "present" (in the sense of "real", of "being there"). An analogy is our feeling that all locations (even if out of our sight) are existing. An interesting aspect is that this positive interpretation "Eru stands out of time" can also be interpreted as a failure: "Eru has no sense for present time" - he can only experience change in an abstract sense. Consider looking at a mountain. In an abstract sense you can interpret the change of height as "change", but only by climbing it you can actually "feel" this change; this is a mapping into time where our "time-sense" can be applied. So I wonder if the "creation of time" should rather be considered as "creation of a sense of present time". As I stated above, in my opinion this "sense of present time" (the fact we feel now as now :-) is an intrinsic feature of our consiousness, so we could also say that Eru created consiousness. He created beings that could sense a certain point of time as present time. Definitely, elves as well as humans got this gift. An interesting question is: how about the Valar? I think they were the first ones who got consciousness. If you look at the very beginning of Tolkiens history, it is interesting to see that Eru invented a musical theme (which, by itself, is static - it does not change). He needed something/somebody who could transform the theme into actual music (which is dynamic). So, the Valar somehow allowed Eru to experience - directly or indirectly - present time. It is also very interesting to ask if Eru itself can be a conscious being. If the ability (interpreted as gift, not doom) to feel one point of time as present time is intrinsic to consciousness, Eru would not have it. His "mind" worked on a completely different level then. It is also interesting to look at the sequence "Valar-Elves-Humans" as a way to increase the "consciousness-level" more and more - in the sense that beings that feel the present time as more essential might have a more consious mind. The climax of this level, of course, is mortality. So, mortality appears as final representation of consiousness - the gift Eru made to humans. Finally, without a feeling for "present time", there would be no mortality. Nobody of us would call a stick "mortal" because it "starts" a a certain location and "ends" at another location at some geographical distance. If we could feel all points of time as "really existing", being mortal would be no difference to the fact we have a physical finite local extension (6 ft for example :-). This interpretation takes some power away from Eru. This is not really a contradiction though. Tolkien himself writes that Valars, for example, could not "understand" the whole concept of elves and humans (which are in the third theme, while the Valar only know the first theme completely). So, elves and humans have something miraculous "more" than the Valar. Any maybe Eru created all of them because he lacked consciousness (in our sense). Mortal beings, like us, would then be a completion of Eru. Of course that all applies to God as well as to Eru... smile Ged

03-20-2002, 10:05 AM	#27
Arathorn Bard of Mangled Songs Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila Posts: 2,679	I checked your profile and you should be old enough, Dwarven. I'll send you a pm. __________________ Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert *Accio, Ash Nazg!* Elennuru s?la lúmenn' omentielvo* (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures... Last edited by Arathorn : 03-20-2002 at 01:32 PM.

03-20-2002, 10:16 AM	#28
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	Yes I am old enough. I am doing my A levels you know. Iam doing Physics Chemistry Maths and Biology and will go to university in less than two years __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

03-20-2002, 10:23 AM	#29
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	(After reading....) Hehehehehehe....(etc) I totally change my opinion Hehehehehehe.................. __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

03-20-2002, 01:25 PM	#30
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	dwarven Sen, if you are currently working on your A levels, then why in the heck do you write like a four-year-old? I noted your experimentation with puncutation; KEEP USING IT!!! It's like reading bloody eecummings or joyce.......yecccchhhh!!!! __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

03-20-2002, 02:09 PM	#32
Elfmaster XK Possessive Villain Fancier Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: On my ship, riding the waves YARR! Posts: 2,008	hEE HEE! I agree with that theory, you've obviosly thought of it from a practical side. My idea was that the first organisms that came out of the sea were not in eggs, so why should it be different for a chicken (egg)? Your theory is better though!!!!! __________________ My soul is painted like the wings of butterflies, Fairytales of yesterday will grow but never die, I can fly - my friends. XK

03-20-2002, 02:15 PM	#33
Arathorn Bard of Mangled Songs Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila Posts: 2,679	'told you it was beyond PG13. BTW, it only occured to me that Dwarven Sen is also a she. __________________ Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert *Accio, Ash Nazg!* Elennuru s?la lúmenn' omentielvo* (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures...

03-20-2002, 02:29 PM	#34
Elfmaster XK Possessive Villain Fancier Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: On my ship, riding the waves YARR! Posts: 2,008	Yes, she is. I get confused too. I only just realisd Somwone else was a she when reading the song thread. Those songs are great! I'm goonna get Sen to have an avatar photo soon though. Then there will be no ambiguity. (Speeling?) __________________ My soul is painted like the wings of butterflies, Fairytales of yesterday will grow but never die, I can fly - my friends. XK

03-21-2002, 04:35 AM	#35
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	Leave my punctuation alone. I do science Alevels not english(though I did get an A at GCSE) but I do science so I only write notes and they only have to be readable to me. I AM A SHE AND I'M GETTING ANNOYED THAT PEOPLE CANT TELL __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

03-22-2002, 12:22 PM	#36
Finrod Felagund King of Nargothrond Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada! eh? Posts: 2,002	Eru is very interestin in that only twice did he directly intervene in Arda. 1 To sanctify the dwarves and give them life 2 To change the world when the Numenoreans landed in Aman He sent his messengers into Arda to do his work and they usually consulted him in most matters. __________________ "THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!"

04-08-2002, 07:31 AM	#37
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	Finrod, are you stalking Eru? He will only intervene when the offspring of his thought are flumoxed or naughty. Notice people, punctuation!!!!!!!!! __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

04-08-2002, 10:44 AM	#38
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Hmmmm. Sometimes I forget some of the age groups with whom I commune through the Moot. Iluvatar DID exist outside of time, independent of the construct of the chronological framework in which we all agree to exist. Time is not something we can currently sense in and of itself; we only can deduce its effect on things. In the same way, we cannot see the wind, but see trees swaying and know it is there; we see things age and know a force is acting upon them. No, time itself is not the force, time is not the force of decay. Decay to existence in the time framework is basically what length is to a line, breadth to a plane, depth to an object. It is a function of how long an object exists in the time framework. Zo. Eru/Iluvatar existed before the framework of time, existed during its own existence, and assumedly, would continue to exist after time ceased to be recognized as a theoretical construct. Interesting that Tolkien would choose music as the framework for creation of an existence grounded in time. Music is closely regulated by time, and without the underlying chronological framework it becomes cacaphony. P'raps an existence in physical form not existing in the framework of time would also seem cacapohinc to our present level of development. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

04-08-2002, 01:33 PM	#39
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	Is it not possible that Iluvatar aheres as well to his own particular theoretical construct that is time? This time property would operate in a similar way to ours, but the two would be separate. Obviously Iluvatar's time would outlast our own, likewise it existed before our own (and simultaneuosly with our own) Is it feasable to say that, in relation to Iluvatar's environment, he has a timeline, or a set sequence of events, which would be perceived as incoherent from our viewpoint?

04-09-2002, 03:38 AM	#40
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	Isn't that just Fate or Destiny? __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

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