The Blue Wizards

[Finrod Felagund]

Originally posted by Wulažg
I'd go for the whole cult thing since if they decided to actually DO something they would have made a huge ruckus. Unless they were jsut blasted away since Sauron had the Ring at the time.........

Well actually, the wizards came to middle eart after the last alliance so Sauron didn't have the ring anymore.

[Blackheart]

Wait... Does this have anything to do with the cryptic message "Blue Wizard has eaten all the food."?

[Ñólendil]

"Blue Wizard is about to die ... "




Heya Xandre. You should check out the "toast" to Danner thread on General Messages.

Well actually, the wizards came to middle eart after the last alliance so Sauron didn't have the ring anymore.

The Blue Wizards came in the Second Age, in one version (that one I follow).

Quenya: Alatar -> Called in ME by Sindarin: Morinehtar
Quenya: Palando -> Called in ME by Sindarin: Rómestamo

The names Alatar, Pallando, Morinehtar, Romenstámo and Romenstar are all of them Quenderin. The names "Morinehtar" and "Romenstámo(/star)" replaced the earlier Alatar and Pallando. I doubt the Blue Wizards had names in Grey-elven, there really weren't any Sindarin speaking people in the far East, or I don't see how there could be.

[Findegil]

The names Alatar, Pallando, Morinehtar, Romenstámo and Romenstar are all of them Quenderin. The names "Morinehtar" and "Romenstámo(/star)" replaced the earlier Alatar and Pallando. I doubt the Blue Wizards had names in Grey-elven, there really weren't any Sindarin speaking people in the far East, or I don't see how there could be.

Thanks Ñólendil, I'm not an expert in languages. So I accept your correction gladly. But still I find it more than possible that Morinehtar and Rometsámo (Romestar) were names given in Middle-Earth by the elves that did know were they came from and what was the propose of their journey.
As far as I know the names Alatar and Pallando are only used in the sketch telling of the council of the Valar in which the Istari were selected and in the accompanying notes. And in that way they stand beside Curumo, Olórin and Aiwendil, the names of the Istari in Valinor.

Since most of the names of Tolkien are speaking names it would be interesting to put some light on Alatar and Pallando. I only found Al(a)tariel = 'maiden crowned with a radiant garland' and Christopher Tolkiens hint to palan = fern, but again I am far from being an expert in languages and I do not memorize these things well, so there might be more.

Regrads
Findegil

[Wayfarer]

Thanks Ñólendil, I'm not an expert in languages.

Neither is Ñólendil. ]: ) He's just one of the few people who reads up on things like this.

[Ñólendil]

Very true. For one thing Tolkien constructed "his" world, or maybe I should say his mythology in such a way that the history and people will often tell you about the languages, and vice-versa. I suppose that is true of actual history, but it is not true of many other fantasies. Anyway researching the different divisions of the Elves* will tell you the Blue Wizards probably did not have Sindarin names. ... Well, unless they received names in the Undying Land from Sindarin speaking people living on the Lonely Isle. But few of the Maiar were known by name among Elves when they were known to be Maiar, or so I seem to remember the Valaquenta saying.

*As for the Grey-elves, they did not really exist as such until the Elves had reached far western Beleriand, lands sunk beneath the western Sea at the time of the Lord of the Rings. The Vanyar and Noldor had all left the Hither Lands (as Middle-earth was called), taken across the Sea by Ulmo to Valinor, when Thingol was lossed in Nan Elmoth. He had wandered in, drawn by the singing of Nightingales, and met Melian. He fell into an enchantment as she sang, gazing at her face wherein the Light of the Holy Ones shone. They stood for years, I forget how many (the exact amount of years is indeed known). Many of Elwe and Olwe's host of Teleri were wandering about the land, and some were dwelling on the coast, waiting for Ulmo. When Thingol was lossed and Ulmo came, his brother Olwe took the Kingship and left in sorrow with most of that coastal people. CÃ*rdan, another kinsman of Elu Thingol (Elwe Thindicollo), was the leaders of the "friends of Elwe" as they are called in the Silmarillion, and they searched for their lost King. All the people of Olwe and Elwe who had remained in Middle-earth after the departure of the former called themselves the Eglath, "the Forsaken". It was when Elwe and Melian finally emerged from Nan Elmoth that Thingol became High King of Beleriand, and all the Eglath were his folk. It was by this time, I guess, that Common Eldarin (the language of all the Elves on the Great Journey) had become "Old Sindarin" and then the Sindarin many are familiar with. But what the Sindar called it is not known. "Sindarin" is a word that belongs to Quenya. The Sindar called themselves the Edhil, simply "the Elves", because everyone who spoke the language was of one people. But within the Grey-elves, there were eventually the Iathrim, the Fence-people of Doriath, the Falathrim, the Shore-people of the Falas ruled by CÃ*rdan, and the Mithrim, the Grey-people living in Hithlum in the land named after themselves. It wasn't until the Noldor arrived and met the Grey-people of Mithrim that the Edhil of Beleriand (called by this time Eluwaith, Folk-of-Elu) were called Sindar, "the Grey". If there were Sindarin folk living in the far East in the Second Age, they were few and exceptional and probably much mingled with the Avari over there.

[Wayfarer]

Incidentally, Dylan: when your footnote is twice the size of your post, even though it's in a smaller font, you have a problem.

[Ñólendil]

*mumbles at the tree-boughs* I like footnotes ...

[Wayfarer]

I like footnotes

Would that be more or less than whole chapters from the silmarillion?

[Galin]

Old thread, yes, but it had the word blue in the title, so...

... are the blue wizards really blue? Anyone recall a mention of colour after the letter of 1958 (letter 211) -- in which Tolkien relates he doesn't know the colours, and doubts they had distinctive colours.

There might be something, but I don't remember at the moment.

[Metus_of_Morgul]

I highly doubt they were successive in their mission...send in 2 little wizards in the middle of nowhere all surrounded by people who worship darkness out of fear,and even Sauron himself must have been visiting the far East often,since he was returning to Dol Guldur from the east...
As someone mentioned,I believe they remained to lead some dark cults following the teachings of Sauron ,worshiping Melkor or both

[Alcuin]

Metus_of_Morgul, Tolkien does indicate that the two Blue Wizards were partly successful in their attempts to discomfit Sauron’s schemes, but that they, too, eventually deviated from their missions. He wrote more about them over a 18-year period, beginning with an essay Christopher Tolkien dates to 1954 cited in “Istari” in Unfinished Tales.

“the Blue Wizards” … passed into the East with CurunÃ*r, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not … known.

CJRT then cites as a footnote to this passage Letter 211 (14 October 1958), to which Galin has already alluded,

I really do not know anything clearly about the other two [wizards] … I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South... What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and “magic” traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.

In Peoples of Middle-earth, Part XIII, “Last Writings”, “The Five Wizards”, CJRT quotes some further material he was later able to interpret from the back of the page of the 1954 essay,

Saruman in his wrath mentioning five [wizards] was letting out a piece of private information. The “other two” came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. …

Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to … stir up rebellion ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.

Because this passage references “Glorfindel II”, the idea that the Glorfindel in Lord of the Rings is the same as the Glorfindel in Silmarillion, sent to Middle-earth via Númenor during the war between the Elves and Sauron in Second Age 1693-1700 after the forging of the One Ring, it might have been written as late as 1972. (The late essay “Glorfindel” immediately precedes “The Five Wizards” in PoME.)

The Blue Wizards are given different names at different points, and it is also said that their names are forgotten; but then, Radagast, Saruman, and especially Gandalf had several different names as well. In any case, the names given are Morinehtar (translate: “Darkness-slayer”) and Rómestámo and (translate: “East-helper”) in Peoples of Middle-earth, and Alatar (unclear: possibly “After-comer” (in one telling, he was chosen second, after Saruman) or “Noble One”) and Pallando (“Far Wanderer”) in Unfinished Tales. (That the same sheet of paper has radically different names for these characters on the front and the back might be further indication that the material on the back was written well after the material on the front.)

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

(...) In Peoples of Middle-earth, Part XIII, “Last Writings”, “The Five Wizards”, CJRT quotes some further material he was later able to interpret from the back of the page of the 1954 essay,

I think CJRT means the back of the other late note rather (the late one reproduced in part in UT), thus...

Because this passage references “Glorfindel II”, the idea that the Glorfindel in Lord of the Rings is the same as the Glorfindel in Silmarillion, sent to Middle-earth via Númenor during the war between the Elves and Sauron in Second Age 1693-1700 after the forging of the One Ring, it might have been written as late as 1972.

I agree that the note was late, but...

The Blue Wizards are given different names at different points, and it is also said that their names are forgotten; but then, Radagast, Saruman, and especially Gandalf had several different names as well. In any case, the names given are Morinehtar (translate: “Darkness-slayer”) and Rómestámo and (translate: “East-helper”) in Peoples of Middle-earth, and Alatar (unclear: possibly “After-comer” (in one telling, he was chosen second, after Saruman) or “Noble One”) and Pallando (“Far Wanderer”) in Unfinished Tales. (That the same sheet of paper has radically different names for these characters on the front and the back might be further indication that the material on the back was written well after the material on the front.)

... here I would say that the same piece of paper does not have radically different forms of the names, as Alatar, Pallando are not on the other side. And I think the implication from the commentary in Unfinished Tales is that JRRT had lost (at least momentarily) the page with Alatar and Pallando, so later he made up two more Quenya names.

Another possibility for Alatar is (I think) 'Light-lord, Lord of light', noting one of Galadriel's names Alatáriel, and Sauron's Annatar 'Gift-lord'.

I would add that since these two notes are late (on the same page or not), it is difficult to know which is later. And in my opinion, the more legible version (if later) implies that the two 'blue' wizards came at the same time as the other three -- so one would think in the Third Age, as Tolkien had already published, or at least that the idea of them coming much earlier is not in play.

Thus, (again if so) at least arguably casting a measure of doubt concerning the idea that the other two also had this measure of success.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Galin

I think CJRT means the back of the other late note rather (the late one reproduced in part in UT), thus...

I agree that the note was late, but...

... here I would say that the same piece of paper does not have radically different forms of the names, as Alatar, Pallando are not on the other side. And I think the implication from the commentary in Unfinished Tales is that JRRT had lost (at least momentarily) the page with Alatar and Pallando, so later he made up two more Quenya names.

...I would add that since these two notes are late (on the same page or not), it is difficult to know which is later.

[the last phrase from Galin is out of sequential order - Alcuin]

Fair enough. On which obverse do you suppose the partially illegible note exists? Are these on one leaf or two leaves? I am unclear on this: do you understand what CJRT has described?

Originally Posted by Galin

Another possibility for Alatar is (I think) 'Light-lord, Lord of light', noting one of Galadriel's names Alatáriel, and Sauron's Annatar 'Gift-lord'.

“Light-lord� makes good sense as a translation.

Originally Posted by Galin

...in my opinion, the more legible version (if later) implies that the two 'blue' wizards came at the same time as the other three -- so one would think in the Third Age, as Tolkien had already published, or at least that the idea of them coming much earlier is not in play.

Thus, (again if so) at least arguably casting a measure of doubt concerning the idea that the other two also had this measure of success.

I, too, have trouble with the notion that the Istari were Second Age characters, and I agree with you that the thrust of the tale seems to be that they arrived sometime in the Third Age. Appendix B in RotK says (in the text “Third Age�, before the tale of years resumes) that the Istari appeared about 1000 years into the Third Age, after the Shadow had settled upon Greenwood the Great; to me, more than anything else, that would trump an appearance in the Second Age. In citing a Second Age appearance of the Blue Wizards, I am citing material at hand.

Second or Third Age, though, I think the Ithryn Luin must have had some positive influence on Middle-earth at the beginning: even if they fell, as the text indicates they did, that fall surely did not take place at once; and Sauron’s resources in the South, which had been the main focus of Númenórean expansion (and hence of the some Black Númenórean daughter-kingdoms, counterparts of the Faithful Númenórean kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor, and one of which was the home of the infamous Queen Berúthiel), and the East, which included the vast regions of Rhûn and the country east beyond Mordor (one wonders whether Khand was ever free of Sauronian influence), should have been vastly larger than they are depicted even in The Lord of the Rings. Where were these armies? or were all late Third Age nations reduced in numbers? The intent, I believe, is that the Blue Wizards had a positive influence on these regions, so that Sauron and his minions were unable to draw upon those peoples for the kinds of military resources that they might otherwise have mustered, large though they were to face doddering Gondor at the end of the Third Age.


-|- A final note on this subject, since the thread is live and likely to draw attention...

The text says that the “chiefs� of the Istari were five: in other words, there were more Maiar who went out as Istari than the Five Wizards. What became of them, what success they had, is not even mentioned: only that there were five “chiefs�. That strikes me as similar to the idea that there were lots and lots of lesser balrogs in the First Age, and that only one big, bad Balrog survived into the Third. (Although descriptions of Sauron sound as if he was unable to take on any other form than that of a balrog: darkness and fire.) So, are there lots of wizards and lots of balrogs and lots of Maiar, or few? (Just to throw a little gas on the fire…)

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Fair enough. On which obverse do you suppose the partially illegible note exists? Are these on one leaf or two leaves? I am unclear on this: do you understand what CJRT has described?

Well, it's just my opinion, but I take it to mean: on one side appears 'Note on the Landing of the Five Wizards and their functions and operations' (Last Writings, arising from the late consideration of Glorfindel) -- part of which was published in Unfinished Tales ('We must assume that they were all Maiar...')

And on the other side of this are the two less legible notes given in Last Writings, the second of which names the wizards anew. I don't think CJRT meant that the second of the two is on a wholly different page, since he first described: 'On the reverse of the page are some notes...'

I also note the commentary that includes JRRT's statement: 'A note made on their names and functions seems now lost...' concerning which CJRT later says that he thinks might refer to the text with Alatar, Pallando.

“Light-lord” makes good sense as a translation.

I thought *Light-lord 'went well enough' with Darkness-slayer too, although I have no evidence to say that Alatar 'is' Morinehtar in a sense, in any case.


On the matter of the success of the two wizards: I'm not sure (at the moment) if there is anything that necessarily precludes them from having some initial success. According to letter 211, for instance, where Tolkien says he doesn't know what success thay had but fears they failed... it's hard to know how long before they failed (within this context) and if they had some success at first.

My 'this measure of success' (above) refers to the measure of success mentioned in the very late note, though not that you said otherwise (just for clarity here).

The text says that the “chiefs” of the Istari were five: in other words, there were more Maiar who went out as Istari than the Five Wizards. What became of them, what success they had, is not even mentioned: only that there were five “chiefs”. (...)

My opinion of this description is that it may have been ephemeral (after arising in 1954). The number of the Istari appears to be five in later accounts -- unless Tolkien somewhat consistently chose not to mind this distinction maybe -- but my guess is that it didn't last rather.

Just as the 'blue' reference may not have lasted?

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Galin

Just as the 'blue' reference may not have lasted?

Blue Wizards, blue hoods – KÃ*li and FÃ*li had blue hoods. By order of listing in The Hobbit, Ori’s was grey, Óin’s was brown, and Glóin’s was white. Glóin was still wearing white when Frodo met him at dinner the evening before the Council of Elrond. (How’d he stay clean traveling? Scotchgard?)

I’m sure there’s no connection between wizards with colors and dwarves with colors. Still, it’s an interesting juxtaposition.

-|-

One more random thought in this non-sequitur post: Ori with the grey hood died not far from the Chamber of Mazarbul in Moria. So did Gandalf the Grey. Not drawin’ any interferences, just sayin’…

[thekingofgondor]

I've always felt that the Blue Wizards didn't ultimately turn to evil like Saruman, but simply became preoccupied with some other obsession, like Radagast had with the plants and animals of the world. Maybe the allure of these things were too great for beings who had never been to Middle-earth before, but even Gandalf developed an obsession with Hobbits that only bore fruit due to chance - his relationship with the Shirefolk extended back much further than Bilbo's time, so he wasn't simply taking an interest in them due to Bilbo having the One Ring. Gandalf was also much smarter and strong-willed than some of the other Istari, so if even he could fall prey to his whims, a lesser Wizard might totally succumb to them (IIRC, Radagast did, in fact - he floundered in Middle-earth long after Sauron's defeat and Gandalf's return home). In any case, I think Saruman's turn to evil is much more shocking and frightening if it is unique. If the majority of the Istari had become evil, it seems like the wiser of the Free Peoples should have kept a closer eye on the comings and goings of the Wizards, just in case...

[Another Istari]

I'd like to clear up another point, there were five named Istari in the books. Unfinished Tales said,"of this order;the number is unknown, but of those that came to the north of Middle -earth, where there was most hope, the chiefs were five." So by reason one can plainly see that there had to more Istari who were not mentioned in the other works...

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Another Istari

I'd like to clear up another point, there were five named Istari in the books. Unfinished Tales said,"of this order;the number is unknown, but of those that came to the north of Middle -earth, where there was most hope, the chiefs were five." So by reason one can plainly see that there had to more Istari who were not mentioned in the other works...

I think this depends, as there are plenty of later texts that refer only to five wizards. One wonders if Tolkien had A) forgotten what he had written in the text you mention, or B) consciously revised the text you mention, considering this point.

By virtue of the wording of all the later texts that only mention five, it might remain possible that Tolkien is, in each of them, only considering five out of some unknown number, but in my opinion one would have to gather up any and all mentions of the five wizards that post date the Istari essay, and see what they think.


That's why I'm (recently) questioning 'blue-ness' -- in a later letter (later than the Sea blue reference and so on) Tolkien specifically notes that he doubts these wizards had colours, and so far I can't find a reference to them being 'blue' in anything later than that.

[The Gaffer]

I think a combination of A and B. In the Hobbit, Gandalf is portrayed as being of a wizarding "profession" and not so much a singular being. As the story develops through LOTR, it quickly becomes clear - after Shadow of the Past - that he is one of a very few. I think this reflects a refining of the story, a desire on the part of JRRT to "account" for Gandalf's powers and make a link to the background mythology of the Silmarillion.

The UT story cited by Another Istari shows an intermediate state between these two ideas of the prevalence of wizards.