Gandalf's Staff

[Strange-Looking Lurker]

Never thought about this before.....

The first thing I think of is when Gandalf broke Saruman's staff. But was that just a symbol? Was it just meant to be an outward sign of what had already happened?

And about who could break a wizards staff....could it be that Gandalf was able to break Saruman's because he had disobeyed the orders given them when the first came to middle-earth?

Then again, why did Gandalfs staff break when be broke the bridge in Moria? Gandfalf was still able to fight and kill the Balrog, but it was really hard for him, and he died shortly after. But then again the Balrog was almost too strong for him when they first met at Bolin's tomb, when Gandalfs staff was still doing fine...this is confusing!


--Samuel, the Strange-Looking Lurker

[Finmandos12]

Like I said above, I think Gandalf's breaking of Saruman's staff was a symbol of his expulsion from the Istari. Saruman had been the leader of the order, but after Gandalf died, he became the leader. Therefore, he had the authority to expel Saruman. The staff was a symbol of their office, so he broke Saruman's.

[anduin]

Me thinks you hit the wrong button. :b

You may want to repost this in the other thread.....

[Finmandos12]

thanks Anduin, I did accidentally hit New Thread

[Michelle The Fair]

In referance to "servent of the secret fire" it refers to one of the Three Rings Of Power held by the elves. This ring would be Narya, given to Gandalf by Cirdian, when Gandalf arrived at The Gray-Havens. Since Gandalf was the most poweful of the Istari it was important that he appear older and weaker than the others. so he lean on the staff some.

[Blackheart]

There's another valid interpretation if you hold to the idea that Olorion was also a servant of the flame imperishable. A "secret fire" of quite a different nature.

[Michelle The Fair]

I thought narya the most likely, because it was being kept secret.

[Blackheart]

Well, I consider it from several points of view.

One- gandalf is one of the Ainur. They do serve the flame- it's one of the reasons they came to Arda.

two- would gandalf actually consider himself a servant of the ring Narya? Or a guardian? Or merely someone using it? It seems an odd choice of words if he actually is referring to Narya.

lastly, the Dark Flame of Udun is set in opposition to Gandalf's role as a servant of the Secret fire. Udun is the Sindarin name for Uttumno, Morgoths first and greatest citadel, and realy quite synonomous with hell, in the cosmology.

The easiest interpretation is basically - Go back to hell servant of Morgoth/darkness, I am a weilder of the power of Eru/light.

As far as wizards staffs, they WERE objects of power. But likely they served mostly as a means of focus. Unlike the rings, especially the one, which had a great deal of Morgoth's* power invested in it, the staffs of the wizards (5 staffs) were probably of a somewhat different nature, though anything would be speculation.

Although we can say breaking one doesn't ALWAYS lead to a boom- Saruman's staff didn't "firework" like Gandalfs. Probably the "fireworks" were due to the amount of power/will that he was focusing on it, and the method he chose to release it- breaking it. Which gives you an idea of just how desperate he was.

*(yes Morgoth, not Sauron's- it's complicated but there's good reason to think so- basically he tapped into the power Morgoth invested into middle earth in an effort to dominate it- Borrowing power from his master.)

[Lightice]

I thought their staff had an essence of their power, after all how else Gandalf make it impossible for Saruman to use spell?

I don't think so. Gandalf could defeat balrog without his staff. I don't think, that a sword is enough for that feat.
I believe, that staffs are symbols of Istari, not sources of their powers. They might focus their spells through the staff, but it's not essential.
I believe, that Saruman losing his powers was becouse of completely different things (curse of Valar) than breaking of his staff, which was only a symbolic gesture of him losing his station.

[Wulažg]

So if Gandalf broke his staff and it was a symbol of his office, then it meant that he probably knew htat he wasn't going to necessarily survive the conflict with the Balrog and so breaking his staff was symbolic of breaking out of the constrictions of the office of the Istari, to fight back with all the might of an Ainur, making him at least an equal of the Balrog. Of course, such a battle would be one of attrition and he would die in the process, especially since even if his body had survived the fight he would have had to regain his position as an Istari.

[Michelle The Fair]

that could be. Good thinking

[Blackheart]

Wulažg has the most commonly supported view, in my opinion. It's the one I espouse.

[Wulažg]

Sorry, I don't marry orcs

*tries to get bad thoughts out of head*

[Tar-Elendil]

the old dude had to have some kinda prop!
plus the idea seems just to fit..just image gandalf carryin around a magic wand!

[Elfhelm]

But Saruman's power was in his voice and the labors of those who obeyed him, so breaking Saruman's staff wouldn't cause fireworks.

[Wulažg]

That and his staff was broken by Gandalf, not destroyed on purpose by the owner. Kinda like a retributive strike with a Staff of the Magi in AD&D. If you break it for retribution there is a huge explosion but otherwise it just breaks.

[Blackheart]

I don't have to imagine Gandalf carrying around a wand.

He carried one around in the Hobbit, if you read closely.

[Wulažg]

Well that and in Norse Gandalf means "elvish wight with a (magiv) staff(or wand)"

[Tar-Elendil]

I don't have to imagine Gandalf carrying around a wand.

hm..i havent read the hobbit in awhile but i dont seem to remember that
could ya tell me where in the book ya read this?

[Blackheart]

In the portions where they are being taken by the goblins.

Tolkien forgot to change wand to staff.