muslims PART 2

[Lotesse]

I challenge you, and your cohort Spock, to cite one good example of some good that the terrorist racist organisation of the Ku Klux Klan has done for this country, or for anyone. Did they distribute free milk to white homeless babies; would that count if that were the one good deed? Is is a good deed if it is only specifically for white, christian, non-homosexual america? One good example. I challenge you. And it has to be good that was done for everyone's benefit, just as the terrorist actions against all the minority groups was harmful to the entire country's growth and collective psyche, the good deed must be beneficial in the same all-encompassing way. Don't forget to brush up on your facts, there, Lief, while you're hunting around for that one good deed. Discover for yourself what kind of organisation the Klan is, and what the facts are about what they have done and what they believe in. Come back to the table armed with some facts, rather than this hunch you have that your buddy Spock is right. You are the one who is so in love with factology!

I know nothing about Hamas, so I am not even trying to go along with yours & Spock's comparison there with Hamas and the Klan, but if Hamas is anything at all like the Ku Klux Klan, then sorry, but there's no good there. Not if the comparison is supposed to be realistic.

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

You'd have to present some pretty good arguments and citations for me to believe that it's one of the pioneers of modern terrorism, though I do consider it to be a form of terrorism. I doubt very highly that Muslim terrorists have borrowed from their example.

I just want to be very clear here, are you implying that Modern terrorism = Muslim terrorists? I'm hoping I'm massively misinterpreting you here.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

*pops in*



He was also a democratically elected leader. Monarchy forever!

*disappears in a puff of smoke*

You really shouldn't do that, it makes yer butt look big.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Not just all Americans- all the West, and many of them have declared religious war with all Muslims also who aren't fundamentalist. That's probably a big part of the reason for this recent blast in Pakistan, and that attack in Jordan, and these attacks that have occurred in Egypt, and of course it's one reason behind the violence in Iraq.

Well said; I'm in total agreement.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

What exactly do you mean, 'terrorism of one race'? Directed towards, or instigated by? If the former, then I don't think it's true to say it's terrorism of one race.

Confusion is understandable as I didn't use the "quote" option. My reply was in reference to the Klan post directly above it.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Just wanted to make sure.

I think another valid question to throw in the pot would be this: what makes a person a Muslim?

Try not to cloud the issue. What makes a person a Christian, a Buddhist, a Taoist, etc. etc., etc. is not relevant here; or maybe it is but it seems only to lead into philosophy, interpretation of Qur'an, etc. and that wanders very far.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

I just want to be very clear here, are you implying that Modern terrorism = Muslim terrorists? I'm hoping I'm massively misinterpreting you here.

I don't deny that there are other non-Muslim terrorist groups. Muslim terrorists are the greatest terrorist threat to the world in general right now, however.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Is is a good deed if it is only specifically for white, christian, non-homosexual america? One good example. I challenge you. And it has to be good that was done for everyone's benefit, just as the terrorist actions against all the minority groups was harmful to the entire country's growth and collective psyche, the good deed must be beneficial in the same all-encompassing way.

When I said I thought they had done good deeds, I wasn't saying I thought they had done good for homosexuals and blacks. Neither was I trying to say that their good deeds equal the bad (Neither of us are in a position to judge this). But if they took out the trash for elderly white conservative women, that is a good act, whether they did it for blacks or not.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

You're misinterpreting me and Spock I think, Lotesse.

YES SHE IS-AGAIN!

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Spock

Try not to cloud the issue. What makes a person a Christian, a Buddhist, a Taoist, etc. etc., etc. is not relevant here; or maybe it is but it seems only to lead into philosophy, interpretation of Qur'an, etc. and that wanders very far.

This topic is for the general discussion of Islam. Muslim extremism would be part of this, but questions about what makes someone Muslim are certainly on-topic, IMHO. It helps to know what makes someone a Muslim for the extremism discussion, as well.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

I challenge you, and your cohort Spock, to cite one good example of I .............know nothing about Hamas, so I am not even trying to go along with yours & Spock's comparison there with Hamas and the Klan, but if Hamas is anything at all like the Ku Klux Klan, then sorry, but there's no good there. Not if the comparison is supposed to be realistic.

Leif has already answered well and true.

To take a page from your book: "I am not going to debate you on this subject nor any other subject".

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

Very often. There's a great number of ignored cases

"Ignored cases" eh. Id love to see some numbers on this. Maybe Jonathan has some knowledge of this as well. It seems preposterous there would be such wonton and rampant killing occurring unchecked in a democratic country with strict laws against such.

[Insidious Rex]

Wait... "what makes a person a Muslim" isnt a valid topic in a thread about Muslims? This place is like a farce sometimes...

[Insidious Rex]

Lotesse,

The KKK certainly did civic deeds because back in the day they were made of all the most powerful people in the community including the politicians. So to increase their popularity they would hold town barbecues and donate money for new fire engines etc. Keep in mind this was all done in an era when the vast majority of the populace was as racist as the Klan. So they saw no evil in lynching a black man then having a pot luck lunch with hooded members of the Klan providing the food. The lKlan WAS the law for quite some time in the deep south. Not an underground organization.

[Grey_Wolf]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

"Ignored cases" eh. Id love to see some numbers on this. Maybe Jonathan has some knowledge of this as well. It seems preposterous there would be such wonton and rampant killing occurring unchecked in a democratic country with strict laws against such.

Sweden may seem like a democracy. But the police have no control over what happens in areas in which imigrants live.

There have been several public cases of this kind. But foreign men who come here are more prone to become fanatics and more prone to be overprotectice towards there female relatives, thus any attempt at breaking free is delt with utmost prejudice.

There might not be accurate numbers to present but nevertherless these things occur.

[Nurvingiel]

Muslim should be capitalized in the thread title Spock! Proper noun, you know.
(end grammar nazi)

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I don't deny that there are other non-Muslim terrorist groups. Muslim terrorists are the greatest terrorist threat to the world in general right now, however.

You have another post earlier that I would like to respond to, but I am checking this from an internet cafe. (Where some jerk has changed the keyboard settings, so I cannot use the apostrophe key. Bah.)

Anyway, I wanted to reply to this at least.

I think that terrorism is far less of a threat than the media, and the American administration, would have us believe. The United States, for example, is much more vulnerable to environmental disasters like hurricanes and floods, power shortages, and possibly water shortages than they are to acts of terrorism. I am not saying any of those events are likely to occur, what I am saying is they are more likely, and more threatening (as in, more likely to impact many people) than an act of terrorism is.

The fear of terrorists inflates the danger and the fear of where the terrorists might originate. If it is possible there might be a Muslim terrorists, since the perpetrators of 9-11 also happened to be Muslim extremists, this increases the fear of Islam as a whole. This, in turn, contributes to misunderstanding on both sides, and both sides separating each other instead of trying to come to an understanding. I think this occurs on both sides. I am sure there are Muslims that have distorted views of Christianity as well. This is why I think we should put aside fear and assumptions and try to actually learn something about each other.

I am not saying you or only a few people in this thread are afraid or making assumptions about Muslims - I think maybe even millions of people do this (to varying degrees).

Amazingly, this was supposed to be a quick post,
Nurvingiel

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

I just want to be very clear here, are you implying that Modern terrorism = Muslim terrorists? I'm hoping I'm massively misinterpreting you here.



You really shouldn't do that, it makes yer butt look big.

Only because it is.

*waggles his over-sized rear at BoP*

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Spock

Confusion is understandable as I didn't use the "quote" option. My reply was in reference to the Klan post directly above it.

Yes, but did you mean "against one race (blacks)" or "by one race (whites)"?

Originally Posted by IR

It seems preposterous there would be such wonton and rampant killing occurring unchecked in a democratic country with strict laws against such.

No it doesn't. Overlooking certain problems is very common among police forces.

Originally Posted by Nurvi

I think that terrorism is far less of a threat than the media

I'm not sure I'd go quite so far, but I agree about the media.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Only because it is.

No, it's not - I just met him on Sunday! He's not fat at all!

(don't ask him about me ... )

[Rían]

The reason why I asked "what makes a person a Muslim" is this - I wanted to be sure we have our terms straight, or talking is useless.

I think in general, a person is a true Muslim (or a Christian or a Buddhist) when they are old enough to make a rational decision (based on thought and analysis), and HAVE made that decision, that the tenets of the belief are true, and they make a serious attempt to follow them on a daily basis.

I know that there's a disconnect when "Christians" are talked about (that's why the (IMO) ridiculous "Hitler was a Christian" comments come up), and I imagine there's a disconnect with Muslims, too. Many people would consider themselves "Christian" if they occasionally wander into a church and think some of the 10 commandments are ok and believe that a god probably exists and their parents called themselves "Christian". But generally when I use the term, I'm talking about a different group - roughly, those that have made a conscious decision, when they are able to do so rationally (i.e., not at the age of 1 or 2), to obey and honor God, based on a belief arrived at in a rational manner that the Bible is true.

Now why I asked the question about Muslims is this: I think there are many cultural Muslims around, like there are many cultural Christians around. In countries where being a second-class citizen, or even the death penalty, is the consequence of NOT being a Muslim, I imagine there are many so-called Muslims that aren't REALLY Muslims. IOW, they live in a Muslim country and follow the general laws and even the outward ceremonies, but if pressed, show that they don't hold their scriptures to be the absolute truth - maybe it's just kind of tradition or "spiritual" or something similar. That's why I like to talk about the particular tenets of a belief - because one can't always judge a belief by some of the people that say they hold it. I think you need to judge a belief on its own merits, and also by the people that carry out the tenets of the belief.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I think that terrorism is far less of a threat than the media, and the American administration, would have us believe. The United States, for example, is much more vulnerable to environmental disasters like hurricanes and floods, power shortages, and possibly water shortages than they are to acts of terrorism.

Clearly but thats not gonna get the politicians reelected. Its a whole lot easier to fear monger about terrorists. Then you make it an 'us against them' situation and voting against you becomes tantamount to being a traitor. You cant do that with an environmental issue.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I think that terrorism is far less of a threat than the media, and the American administration, would have us believe. The United States, for example, is much more vulnerable to environmental disasters like hurricanes and floods, power shortages, and possibly water shortages than they are to acts of terrorism. I am not saying any of those events are likely to occur, what I am saying is they are more likely, and more threatening (as in, more likely to impact many people) than an act of terrorism is.

Hamas was democratically voted into majority in the Palestinian Authority. BBC News has warned that Syria has a large portion of its population extremist. Iran is a powerful country ruled by extremists, with a large part of the population extremist, and it now has access to nuclear technology. Not nuclear bombs, but having successfully enriched uranium is a major step in that direction, should Iran choose to go that route. Iraq is fighting a war against tens of thousands of extremists. Egypt's government had to attack voters to the opposite parties and close off polling booths, force its elections in order to keep the political majority, because a powerful Islamic group, the Muslim Brotherhood, tried to take over in the elections. Radical Islam is rising in France as well, and I can cite accounts that it is spreading among American Muslims as well. Europe is a breeding ground for terrorism. Terrorists are crossing the border from Mexico into the United States. There are terrorist cells that have been launching attacks on countries all around the globe.

Accounts about ten major attempted terrorist attacks since 9/11 have been declassified by the United States government. It's clear they haven't given up. They are a very dangerous threat. The reason we haven't experienced another major attack since 9/11 is that the government has been working hard to prevent one. Let us beware of complacency!

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

The fear of terrorists inflates the danger and the fear of where the terrorists might originate. If it is possible there might be a Muslim terrorists, since the perpetrators of 9-11 also happened to be Muslim extremists, this increases the fear of Islam as a whole. This, in turn, contributes to misunderstanding on both sides, and both sides separating each other instead of trying to come to an understanding. I think this occurs on both sides.

I agree. I think Islam is a violent religion by nature, but I think that Western views of Islam are distorted when they say all Muslims are like that. An outlook that condemns all Arabs and all Muslims is a very negative one. It alienates Muslims who truly want peace.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I am sure there are Muslims that have distorted views of Christianity as well. This is why I think we should put aside fear and assumptions and try to actually learn something about each other.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I am not saying you or only a few people in this thread are afraid or making assumptions about Muslims - I think maybe even millions of people do this (to varying degrees).

I am not making assumptions. The view I have does not come from 9/11, but comes from my research of history. I had no views about Islam until I read about its early expansion, and then I connected the dots. I also researched the religion some. Hence comes my current view. None of that is assumptions (though I am sure there are people who make incorrect assumptions about Islam), though I grant that it may be flawed reasoning.

If my tone there sounded offended, please don't interpret it so. It was unintentional!